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Thread: Laser noobie looking for help

  1. #11
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    Pardon my ignorance but are the DT-40's the scan heads? What is a scan head exactly? Also, what are my options for a "real" laser controller. Basically i want to be able to do simple beam effects and simple text. (I built a rig that can spin 180 at the press of a button so i can do forward/backward projections). What are the different ways to hook it up to the computer? Would it be bad to just use fiesta or something of that nature? What are the advantages/draw backs. Also what is an accession number? I'm looking to use this as an effect during rock shows. Thanks for the help. O yea, is there any way to make it eyesafe?

  2. #12
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    Yes, Dt-40's are scan heads.

    "Scan heads" are galvo pairs used to deflect the light around and draw the images.

    There are limited options right now for controllers. Off the top of my head, there is pangolin, mamba+easylase/riya and lastly alphalite. There are a few more, but Ive never had the chance to really play with them.

    If your only requirement is simple beam and text effects I think you could get away with 12k pretty easily.

    The ways to hook the dac up to the computer vary by manufacturer. In pangolin's case its a PCI card, Easylase uses USB, and alphalite uses the parallel port.

    What is "Fiesta"?

    An accession number is what the FDA/CDRH gives you after you fill out a lot of paperwork and spend a lot of time with a laser safety officer making your laser display system meet the regulations listed in CFR1040.10 and CFR1040.11. Theres a lot of nasty stuff in there.

    Well to make it wholly eyesafe use a class IIIA laser(<5mW) or diverge the beam to where it doesn't contain more than 5mW of power over any 8mm area in the beam and then convince the FDA its wholly safe(you will have more fun with spotlights and probably be happier with the beam shape and lack of paperwork)

  3. #13
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    Fiesta is a freeware program for designing shows by a company called kvant. I can live without audience scanning no problem. Basically, it seems that I cannot hook up the laser to my computer without some sort of interface even with the freeware program. Is that correct? If i wanted the most inexpensive way to do simple beam shows and texts that someone could control in real time (controlling from a laptop is okay). Also, how close is this laser to being CDRH approvable? I know it still needs a shutter and probably one of those ir filters but how far away is it?
    My questions just don't stop comin',
    Joey

  4. #14
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    WHHHOOOOooosshhhhhh

    everyone rushes off to the KVANT website

    http://www.lasershow.sk/

    How free it is i dont know yet .... it looks like you can only export shows to the CUBOX device

    if anyone finds different let us know


    thanks Jorton19 for the info ..... and welcome .... hope we can help you


    Karl

  5. #15
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    Thanks to everyone for the advice, everyone on this website has been so helpful! At this point i have four questions that i still need to figure out before i can move forward and buy a device.
    1. How far away from CDRH standard is this laser?
    2. How can i hook it up to a computer? it does not have the standard ILDA input.
    3. What computer program/else should i hook it up to if i want to do simple beams/and texts and how much would it cost?
    and finally, are there any other rgb lasers at comprable pricing that meet CDRH requirements?

    Joey

  6. #16
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    Hi Joey;

    Welcome to PhotonLexicon! Glad to hear you're finding the answers you're looking for. But before you rush into a purchase, I think you might want to slow down a bit. It sounds like you want to start doing commercial shows in public. While that is a laudable goal, there are some sticking points that you need to be aware of.

    Chief among them is the CDRH, and the stranglehold they have on the laser show industry in this country. It is very difficult to just "start" a laser show business. (Well, it's hard to start one and be LEGAL... There are plenty of people doing it illegally I'm sure, but I wouldn't want to be there when they get busted!) Remember that the CDRH is a branch of the Food and Drug Administration. So you're dealing with Uncle Sam here, and it's a good idea to toe the line - especially when the feds are involved.

    Your questions about which projector meets the requirements for the CDRH is a bit misleading. Just because a projector has the required safety features to make it compliant with the CDRH regulations doesn't mean you can start using it in a public laser show. In order to do that, you have to obtain a *variance* from the CDRH. (Part of the nasty paperwork nightmare that Spec was posting about above.)

    Basically, a variance is a government document that certifies the projector as being in compliance with all the CDRH rules. As such, the process of getting a projector variance involves a lot of work. You will be held to the same standards as any medical laser would be. (Think about that for a moment: You're asking the *federal government* to certify your projector as being safe.)

    By comparison, the variance for the show itself is somewhat easier to obtain. This is why some people purchase a projector that already comes with a CDRH variance. Most of the larger laser show companies will build a projector to your specifications and file the paperwork to get a variance for you (for the projector only; you're still on your own for the show variance). However, this will cost a *lot* more than your budget of $2000. (Potentially many times more.)

    As for the F2000 unit in particular, you can make an adapter that will allow you to connect the 8-pin port on the back of the unit to an ilda-standard 25 pin connector. (Or, alternately, you can cut a hole in the back cover and install your own 25-pin connector and solder the wires inside the unit to the correct pins.)

    Then you will need to purchase some sort of a controller (called a "DAC", for Digital-to-Analog Controller) to allow a computer to send signals to the scanners. (Scanners, or galvos, are analog devices - much like speakers are. Computers are, of course, digital devices.) Depending on which DAC you purchase, you may also need to buy software to talk to it.

    For example, Pangolin systems are sold as a hardware and software combination, as are the X-29/Full auto system and the Alphalite XC Pro system. But the Mamba software (both Mamba Black and Mamba 2004) is sold by itself, since it will work with a number of different DACs, including some that you can build yourself. Then there are some free/open source solutions that also support different DACs. (One even uses a modified sound card to produce the analog output that gets sent to the scanners!) Each package has is pros and cons, and there are several threads here on PhotonLexicon that talk about them.

    Once you have software and a DAC, you can control the projector from a computer. NOW you can start filling out the paperwork for a variance. (One for the projector, one for the show, and one for the venue where the show will be performed.) If you plan to set up the laser in several different locations, you may wish to apply for a traveling variance, which will allow you to perform the show at any venue, so long as you abide by the guidelines and restrictions in the variance.

    But you need to have all variances in hand before you do your first commercial laser show. If not, well, you can imagine the sort of trouble you might find yourself in.

    I have not personally undertaken the challenge of obtaining a variance, in part because the paperwork scares me, and in part because I'm not ready to start doing shows on my own. I have worked with other laserists that do have variances, and I've found the experience to be very rewarding, and educational as well. But it also showed me that I have a lot more to learn before I'm ready to try this myself.

    So, my advice to you would be to find yourself a mentor in your area that can guide you through the process. It will make things a lot easier for you. Of course there is a lot of help available here on PhotonLexicon too...

    Adam

  7. #17
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    Thanks Adam, I will definitely put my plans on hold until I get some more information. I am definitely not planning on starting a laser show business by the way; There are way too many people out there who know way more about this than me. I want to use it as a lighting effect for local rock shows that i produce. The laser would be way above people's heads for beam effects and on a back wall for animations. Does this application fall under the same regulations as a lasershow business. Would it be virtually impossible to get this projector up to snuff with the CRDH and to get an "accession number"? In my opinion lasers are far and beyond any other effect that can be used at a rock show and i really want to make this happen!

  8. #18
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    Anytime lasers are used in commerce, the CDRH has jurisdiction. Even if you don't charge for the lasers per se, if the lasers are part of a larger event that involves commerce (such as a rock concert with paid admission or a dance club with a cover charge), you still need a variance.

    About the only way around this is if you're having a private, totally free event. For example, the Florida Laser Enthusiast's Meeting that will be held this Saturday is an example of an event where the CDRH has no jurisdiction. Likewise, if you decide to set up your lasers in your basement and invite your friends over to watch, then you're OK.

    Free events that are otherwise open to the public are in the grey area. Technically, since there's no commerce involved, you can argue that the CDRH doesn't have jurisdiction. However, the CDRH could - in theory - come back with the arguement that your un-varianced projector may create a public health hazard. I don't know of any specific examples where this has happened, but when I posed the scenario to a CDRH rep back in 2002 he cleverly evaded the issue.

    However, in your case (the rock concert) I think it's clear that a variance would be required.

    Adam

  9. #19
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    Thanks for the advice Adam. I am definitely going to wait on public shows but i think i am still going to buy one because my band does private non-pay events, I throw a lot of parties, lasers are so fucking cool, and i can use it in my next music video. It seems people think this is a good start for rgb (which is what i want), and i can slowly start building up towards making it cdrh compliant. I hope that is a good plan. :? (If not, more advice would be appreciated) Now there are two new questions that i need to figure out.
    1. What is a good intro software package, and is there anyway i can start out on freeware without buying a DAC. and if i do have to buy a DAC, what do i have to buy?
    2. Do people in the "laser world" share ILDA frames and animations or does it not work like that? I saw someone sharing a batman .ild file, but is that rare for people to share them? Is there anywhere i can find them to download?

    Thanks everybody for all of the help! I was totally lost before i found this site. I still may be a little lost, but not as much.......

  10. #20
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    Sharing ILDA files is sort of a no-no in the industry, but we here at PL think of that as bull. I'm sure if you ask nicely people will share their frames , but don't expect high quality, professionally made frames. It will probably be made by someone on his spare time to try and help you as a member 8) .

    As for the DAC and software, there's a combination out there that is very inexpensive. The software is free and it's called peoplescan. The dac is pretty inexpensive to build too, between 50 and 100$ I'd say. However, that solution does have some limitations, the software is not as powerful as other commercial softwares, and the dac works off the parallel port of your pc, which means it will produce hot spots as it waits for windows to send the data through the port (the port tends to freeze when the computer is in use, like opening a program, or even changing to another window/program). However, for the price, you can't go wrong :P
    Remember the future?, That'd today, as you imagined it yesterday.

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