confused about software/DAC requirements of laser projectors

[dream]

EDIT: The way some of the members here have desperately tried to identify my location and nationality for whatever reason they believed was needed for by asking an admin to check my profile logs and researching me by the content of my posts has been very creepy and unnecessary. So bye.

[The_Doctor]

Laserboy isn't in your list, but should be considered. The DAC basically deals with accurate timing and streaming of data, which PC's are notoriously bad at doing with their own hardware even if they can do it at all. Some software is written for a specific DAC, others can use sound cards (with proper DC coupling output) so can use whatever driver the hardware maker provides. Your choices are basically the same as those in any computer hardware system: a compromise of cost and ability, combined with a certainty that you will be able to get support from newer systems in future without making your original choice useless.

I'd choose to use the adapted-soundcard route for cheapness, power, ease of writing my own controls. But given what Swamidog can do with them, I'd say LSX and an Etherdream is a great choice. I can only speak for myself, show you a couple of choices I might make, and why I might make them. Given the user base for some DAC's, software made for others will often be extended to support those too. Going for software that makes a rigorous bid for general compatibility is a good basis for choosing too, because any coder willing to do that is one who cares about correctness and reliability. Take care though! Many coders want to appear to support all contenders, but that doesn't mean they do it well. Measure thrice, cut once.... If it costs, it might be a while before you can do it again, and there's no point in learning stuff you'll want to unlearn later. My one biggest consideration is this: Is the programmer good enough to trust ME with extensive control over the code too? In other words, if you find somethign that has good software development support for end users, you'll likely get a better tool that way.

[Datsurb]

I am not an oracle in this area, keep on reading this forum, and slowly but shure, things get more and more clear.

For the DAC, it is not av stright forward answer.

Pangolin are for use with Pangolin DAC, (with a few exeptions i beleive)

Ishow DAC can be used with spaghetti also, but have limitations regarding speed and performance. At least my experience. Spaghetti is 100 times better than Ishow software though.

There are some DAC that work with multiple software, and Riya seems to be preferred by a lot of members here.

My best tips is to keep reading the threads regarding DAC. Use the search function and you will be wise.

Datsurb

[The_Doctor]

Pangolin are for use with Pangolin DAC, (with a few exeptions i beleive)

That reminds me of what happened in audio synthesis devopment... DAC basically meaning Digital to Analog Converter, suggests a basic widget that does a basic job. But some things just work better in dedicated hardware so get put on the same board as the DAC. That kind of thing can lead to mission creep. In a good way... Yamaha put whole DSP systems on boards, whole polyphonic synthesisers far beyond what a basic DAC does. I think this might be a method that Pangolin are using. It ties you to specific software, strongly. But if it does what you want its great because it can be liberating in your choice of PC hardware, as more of the processing is done on hardware supplied with the software. This method is never the cheapest though, and almost always the most expensive too.

Before I run out of anything remotely useful to say, I have this: I'd go one way or the other. I'd either go with a good hardware process board and dedicated software, OR I would go with a high quality audio interface like a Layla24 which is extremely easy to adapt for DC coupling so I can then use any software that will run on a PC and use a sound card (many softwares get extended to allow this too now). I'd go one way or the other, I would NOT try to mix these two notions in a choice of DAC. I suspect a heap of messy choices might result if I did.

[james]

The LaserBoy application is free and it comes with all the source code that builds it on just about any modern OS. It comes with a Windows executable already built and you can find instructions for building it in Linux for PC and even tiny ARM based Linux distributions like the Raspberry Pi and any computer running Mac OSX.

The application is quite useful for any laserist using any system that takes ILDA files as a valid vector art format. It can do incredibly minute things manually and software generated special effects with frames or whole sets of frames. It can import DXF CAD files and even raw wave recordings made from ADAT tape trascriptions or similar.

The LaserBoy DAC, aka modified sound card with DC correction amp, plays waves made in LaserBoy plus ADAT wave transcriptions AND there is also a driver-go-between that makes it a viable laser DAC for several other laser applications that are out there that are either free or inexpensive, some of which are built in Windows, Linux or Mac OSX.

So, in a nutshell, The LaserBoy app is universally useful in any OS regardless of your choice of DAC and the LaserBoy DAC is useful for many different laser show applications in your choice of OS.

James.

[swamidog]

i have a couple laya24's. once they're modded, they do quite well for controlling laser projectors.

however..

1) by modern standards, they pretty huge
2) they require an internal full heigh pci card slot. i hacked one of mine to work with a half height slot, but i don't recommend it for the timid.
3) they're mostly only available if you get lucky scraping ebay

i strongly recommend using network controlled dacs like pangolin's qm.net or j4cbo's etherdream. you have better electrical isolation, and the wiring is much easier if you have multiple dacs or if your projector(s) is any distance from the controlling computer.

That reminds me of what happened in audio synthesis devopment... DAC basically meaning Digital to Analog Converter, suggests a basic widget that does a basic job. But some things just work better in hardware so get put on the same board as the DAC. That kind of thing can lead to mission creep. In a good way... Yamaha put whole DSP systems on boards, far beyond what a basic DAC does. I think this might be a method that Pangolin are using. It ties you to speciofoc software, strongly. But if it does what you want its great because it can be liberating in your choice of PC hardware, as more of the processing is done on hardware supplied with the software. This method is never the cheapest though, and almost always the most expensive too.

Before I run out of anything remotely useful to say, I have this: I'd go one way or the other. I'd either go with a good hardware process board and dedicated software, OR I would go with a high quality audio interface like a Layla24 which is extremely easy to adapt for DC coupling so I can then use any software that will run on a PC and use a sound card (many softwares get extended to allow this too now). I'd go one way or the other, I would NOT try to mix these two notions in a choice of DAC. I suspect a heap of messy choices might result if I did.

[james]

If you look for it, you can find a PCMCIA card for laptop to control the echo Layla 24/96.

And, although some modifications are nice and make the Layla a bit more versatile, the only mods that are actually necessary are jumping the first 6 channels's output decoupling caps. No external electronics are needed, because the audio outputs are already balanced around zero volts and there is more than enough voltage swing to drive the scanners and the color channels. That makes it a nice choice.

But don't rule out the idea of using a cheapo generic external USB 7.1 suround sound device like the USB SND8 with a LaserBoy Correction Amp.

James.

[The_Doctor]

Never underestimate scraping eBay. It sucks if we're aiming for quantity, but for personal and specific projects it's great. And that PCMCIA adapter for a Layla24 is occurring more often, not less, as years pass. I grant that a Layla24 is big, but if you want to have lots of good quality sockets it doesn't get a lot smaller. Even the neatest patch bays could only fit its space three at a time or so. Layla24 is also a very light weight, as rack boxes go... A nice tiny box is only ok till it breaks, and they usually do that entirely too easily. I bet laser-based hardware fits that rule like most other stuff.

EDIT:
There is a Gina24. This one has the DAC on the PCI board. In an ITX machine that might make a VERY tidy laser-drive computer, with the analog portage all coming out on a 25 pin Dsub. WARNING: do NOT confuse that one with an ILDA connector.

More edit:
What Swamidog said about networks. Seconded. This now applies to things like file servers too. It's fast becoming a true engineer's replacement for RS-232 serial. USB fails this, badly, despite being intended to do that. Ethernet works. It also futureproofs hardware better than anythign else since serial RS-232.

[The_Doctor]

Laya24's...require an internal full heigh pci card slot. i hacked one of mine to work with a half height slot, but i don't recommend it for the timid.

For the untimid, there is a 'viper' flexible PCI riser found on eBay, uses a black FR4 board... This thing is easily adapted to a direct chassis mount for a Layla PCI board. Take care to get the lengths of each wire exact for pulse edge timing accuracy, if fitting extended cables. This is more important than the length, and that too is important, no more than 250mm, and that's risking data corruption as it is. Should work if you can screen it from other noisy cabling nearby though, and allow a close fit beside an ITX board in same plane for a 1U rack complete system.

[colouredmirrorball]

Time to get out the DAC list. Some software compatibilities are included, but far from complete...

-There's the cheap sound card DAC's, as mentioned above, but those require some DIY. Depending on the sound card, I guess those are about $50-150, unless you have an old 6 or 8 channel sound card lying around. Look on the Laserboy forum for more information about this. Works with Spaghetti and LSX, and with an audio program you can play back Laserboy waves.

-The Riya DAC. Lite is $145, Basic is $255 and Pro is $305. I don't know much about them, but so far I didn't hear anything bad about them. Riya Lite is really nice, it's just an USB cable with an ILDA connector at the end, but it contains a fully featured DAC. Works with Spaghetti and LSX.

-The Easylase is a really nice DAC, it's the one I currently have. I can't say anything bad about it, rock solid. But I don't hear much about it anymore, and it's quite expensive (€350). Developed by JMLaser, a German company. Again, works with Spaghetti and LSX, as well as a whole lot of freeware programs on the ftp server. A similar unit is the Netlase which works over ethernet. There is an option to get DMX in and output as well.

-Framestreamer 2.0. I had an older version, the Framestreamer 1.1. It worked fine on my old laptop but refused to do anything on my new one so I gave up with it. But for $199, not a bad price. Developed by Norm, a Canadian hobbyist. Works with NLS (its own software) and Spaghetti.

-I don't know anything about Lumax except that they are apparently sold as Laserworld DACs.

-There's the new Lasershark DAC. Not yet supported by software but that's just a matter of time.

-The Etherdream. This DAC works over ethernet and I only hear positive stuff about it. It is manufactured by j4cbo on this forum and he knows what he's doing. Kind of expensive, but a good deal for what you get. The price dropped recently, $199 is hardly expensive anymore for the feature list: DMX support, TTL outputs, OSC support, on board processing, ...

-Medialas. Originally developed to work with Mamba software, also compatible with LSX. €711.62 for the DAC + software.

-iShow. I have no experience with it but there's probably a reason everyone refers to it as iShit. Known to not work on 64 bit computers.

-Pangolin QS and FB3. The cheapest Pangolin product (only $600!). Quickshow is known to have a very user friendly interface and is easy to use. Downside is that it's proprietary hard- and software so you can only use the DAC with Pangolin software. It can trace bitmaps for easy logo conversion. Soon an ethernet version should be available.

-Pangolin QM board: has a four figure price tag, and needs to be built into a computer or rack. Ethernet version available.

-Moncha and Fiesta from Showtacle. I have no experience with them but I guess they are good products. They work over ethernet as well, and reasonable price.