Z-5 Analog Abstract Generator

[polishedball]

Just wanted to put it out there that laserist did come through for me and provide full documentation of an old laser images laserium driver card that I needed. He had no idea who I was and was still happy to help. I know he has rebuilt several old series or projectors, consoles and is restoring some as well for a friend in Australia so I have been told.

Not sure who was disrespected where in this thread, just saw the comments about him not being helpful or sharing so I wanted to toss out my experience.

Buffo we are usually so on the same page, love ya brother. Crazy my last 2 posts have countered yours no ill intent.

[buffo]

Just wanted to put it out there that laserist did come through for me and provide full documentation of an old laser images laserium driver card that I needed.

Hey John;

That's great. That's the first instance I've heard of him actually helping someone. Though I would now ask, why wasn't this information posted here on the forum? Granted, old laserium hardware is not very common these days, but surely there are others out there who might be searching for the same information, yes? (At the very least, DSLI-Jon would be interested.)

Not sure who was disrespected where in this thread

The roots of his disrespect go far beyond this thread. Example: Here's a quote from a recent PM I received from another PL member: "Laserist was the reason I stopped my sub on this forum." He has continually railed against the hobbyist movement because he sees them as "dilettantes", to use his own words from above. Basically, if you're not a pro, you're nothing - at least in the persona he's displayed here.

The problem is that the vast majority of PL's membership consists of hobbyists and enthusiasts. People actually doing commercial work are in the minority here. Give that Laserist appears to hold the hobbyists in such contempt, one wonders why he's still here.

I for one am not going to worship at the alter of a has-been laserist, no matter how awesome he was 30 or 40 years ago, if he's going to persist in his elitist attitude. We have other members here who have been there and done that as well (Pat Bishoff anyone?), and they're not pissing all over the hobbyists. What gives this guy a free pass?

Respect needs to be earned. I learned that over 4 decades ago. Apparently Laserist never did.

Buffo we are usually so on the same page, love ya brother. Crazy my last 2 posts have countered yours no ill intent.

It's all good John. And who knows? Maybe he'll open up and share some experiences that will change my mind about his motivations for being here. But he's already trampled on more than a few members here, and this thread was the last straw for me.

Adam

[laserist]

You conveniently forgot that The Doctor first posted a suggestion for the same thing long before I ever joined the thread. *His* suggestion is what initially set you off and spurred my reply, not my later post which you quoted above. Bottom line - we're discussing the same thing.

I didn't forget anything - you misrepresented the truth, and are continuing to do so.

Bully for you. Don't expect any reverence from people just because you did something 40 years ago and have been mum about it since. This website is for the open sharing of information and the promotion of lasers and laser shows. It's not a retirement home for washed-up has-beens to relive their glory days while breathless groupies fawn at their former greatness. If you're looking for that sort of response - go elsewhere.

Dude you're projecting - I'm not the guy that wouldn't tell you the "secrets of the brotherhood", and I honestly couldn't care less about your respect. You might consider that instead of all of those old farts holding out on you - it's YOUR attitude that's the key to your ongoing angst about your predecessors.

Nor do the other professionals (and gifted amateurs) here on PL who give their time and knowledge freely so others can enjoy the art. Those people have the respect of the entire community.

Again I say Dude - I gave of my experience doing over 3000 live shows with analog consoles and countless hours of practice - Not my fault if you’re so enamored with your own opinion that you wouldn't listen.

No, you said that labels were for dilettantes. That's not the same thing. I've done live shows using modern midi controllers, and I label the sliders. So do most operators I've worked with.

Again Dude - read the whole thread - My entire first comment was, "You don't have time in a performance to look for much less read labels. Making something accessible isn't the same thing that makes it revolutionary..."

Did you even read what was suggested? No one said anything about moving the controls any further apart. You're railing against a straw man here.

Yes - I read it - I disagreed with it - I still disagree with it – you’re going to have to step back from the personal attacks if you expect to change someone’s mind.

A better question would be, "How many canned shows have you done?" The answer to that is exactly 2. *ALL* of my other shows have been live. And while I'm no threat to Lasernet, or lightwave, or even Peachtree, I've done shows for the likes of Tiesto (twice), Paul Van Dyke, DJ Icey, Baby Anne, and even Bo Bice down in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for the troops stationed there. (That was New Year's Eve, 2011, and DZ was with me on that gig.) Seriously - apart from a corporate gig, who does pre-choreographed shows these days? Everything is live now, from your local nightclub gigs all the way to large concerts.

No, a better way to phrase the question would have been to ask, How many live shows have you done on an Analog Console? You pretended to misunderstand the intent for the sake the argument you're trying to win...

I used to use LivePro with a Novation Remote Zero controller and two monitors, one of which was a touch screen. But lately I've shifted to Beyond and an APC-40, and I think it works a lot better. I haven't found a place to print a custom label for the APC-40 though, and unlike the Remote Zero you don't have an LCD above the controls to label them in software.

If you need labels - you're holding yourself back.

About the only time I actually watch canned shows anymore is at SELEM. And even there, you'll notice that there are TWO areas set up for shows. The auditorium is for set-piece stuff that has been pre-choreographed, but the cafeteria area is strictly for live shows. Some people love to sit in the auditorium and watch shows there, and that's cool, but I spend most of my time in the cafeteria with the rest of the live show junkies. (There are a lot more projectors in there too, and far more controllers.)

So you don’t employ preprogrammed sequences of frames? Press the button labeled bridge and let it run?

False dichotomy. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's the best, and just because it's new doesn't mean it's better. There is room in the middle, which you have conveniently omitted. To wit: the old-school analog console is still cool for some live effects, but it can always be improved. Some of the best effects David and I got out of the console were accomplished by starting with a colored frame in Pangolin and then manipulating it with the console. I think if we started with an abstract instead (so we would have control over the color cycle speed) the effect would be even better.

Only if you ignore that both are fools. They’ve reached their conclusion right or wrong by relying on tradition or shiny newness. It’s not their conclusion – it’s their process.

Some of the best effects David and I got out of the console were accomplished by starting with a colored frame in Pangolin and then manipulating it with the console. I think if we started with an abstract instead (so we would have control over the color cycle speed) the effect would be even better.

And if you could actually control the Color Modulation intimately in real time it might have been mind blowing, but that part isn’t built yet.

Instead of bragging about how awesome you had to be to do these effects back in the day, why don't you share some of your experiences so others can learn?

Catch 22 – you’re so poisoned about something (real or imagined) that you’d dismiss that as bragging too.

Oh, that's right... Because you're not here to help people; you think they're supposed to struggle through it on their own. And *that* is the real reason I called you out. Notably, you haven't done anything to change anyone's mind about your intentions since then, so I'd say I pegged you pretty close to the mark.

They’re suppose to try, They’re supposed to work, They’re suppose to practice, They’re supposed to look at other people’s work and figure it out, They’re supposed to grow. They’re supposed to ask the RIGHT questions, and they’re supposed to listen. They’re supposed to think.

Enjoy your retirement...

Adam

You know - your words here betray all of the faults and arrogance that you’ve ascribed to me. Despite that, I honestly hope to see one of your shows someday and be humbled by it. It would be so nice to retire to the “home for washed-up has-beens” feeling that the future of lasers as an Art was in good hands.

[The_Doctor]

The roots of his disrespect go far beyond this thread. Example: Here's a quote from a recent PM I received from another PL member: "Laserist was the reason I stopped my sub on this forum." He has continually railed against the hobbyist movement because he sees them as "dilettantes", to use his own words from above. Basically, if you're not a pro, you're nothing - at least in the persona he's displayed here.

The problem is that the vast majority of PL's membership consists of hobbyists and enthusiasts.

Spot on. This is why I can easily stop it getting to me this time. I may have enough illness to be on govt benefit with a doctor's certificate, but I taught myself damn near everything I know, starting by scavenging old electronics wherever I could find them, including the back streets and derelict buildings. It's taken a long time, with no paid help whatsoever, but I can do a thing or two to a sellable standard in areas not known to be particularly easy, technically. Not bad for a 'dilletante', and if the govt had paid for the education I scavenged, it would have COST them, many times over anything I ever got. So I'm not ashamed. I just think I should be able to do more.

As to 'the successful laser show', I learned in one go, fixing and driving a 20mW argon I'd built a PSU for in a week from scrap parts for a guy, that you can pleasse a crowd just by flying the thing like what you're doing actually matters. Given that even the DJ's decided this was something to work with, not against, I think it is entirely possible for a 'dilletante' to turn pro in a DAY, all they need is to want to do it again. I probably would have, but that laser is HEAVY, and I didn't have trasnport, and the guy I knew would have made life difficult, He was good, but I just know I'd be havingh to solve problems he didn't really grasp the difficulty of. I'd have been the donkey and I don't want to put myself in a position where a friend would ride me and leave me resentful. But it was a fun show. Mainly it was just down to a mix of improvisation and attention. When I described this to Laserist last time it came up, he said not a word. But why do I need to care when I saw hot women dancing under that strange blue light, as excited by its weird agility as I was. I got as much gratification as an hour will usually ever provide.


EDIT:
While I'm here, before getting out of it as I want to, there's just one point that kept wanting said:
'Revolution' is popular uprising. Or uptake in this case. As Hugh Laurie said in some interview:"Ideas are common, execution is rare, and that's the thing that matter. Anyone can have a good idea, it takes a skilled and persistent person to make something good come out of it". Or words closely to that effect. (I got that from flawed memory.) A small analog console, either for audio or laser control, is an instrument. A lot of thought goes into what goes in, and also what is left out. And the one thing that really does not help that process is some arbitrary notion that 'accessible' and 'better' are in any way separate. Currently my own synthesiser program can do several things, and I now find that choosing what cut to make for the cleanest expression of its nature is harder than any of the stuff I learned to get it this far. But one thing I do know: It will never be so blindingly simple that a stranger could grasp it withotu at least SOME visual guidance. I'm not talking about text labels, and I hate eyecandy in a synth with a passion, but there IS always a case for a good clear and simple map, within immediate reach of a diverted glance.

[buffo]

I'm not the guy that wouldn't tell you the "secrets of the brotherhood"

Really? Then why do you insist that people need to struggle to learn? You said:

They’re suppose to try, They’re supposed to work, They’re suppose to practice, They’re supposed to look at other people’s work and figure it out, They’re supposed to grow. They’re supposed to ask the RIGHT questions, and they’re supposed to listen. They’re supposed to think.

Now here we have a member who has built a console, put it out there for people to see (and purchase, if they want), and some people asked questions about how it worked. Are those not the right questions? How else would they learn if they didn't ask those questions?

I totally agree that learning how to perform a laser show takes practice, but if you don't know what the controls do, all you can do is make hash. Getting the sliders labeled allows you to focus on what you're actually making.

It would be like purchasing a guitar amp that didn't have any of the knobs labeled. You reach for the volume, and it's reverb. You grab the bass knob, but it's treble. What company sells equipment like that?

Also remember that the vast majority of the people who will be buying this console are doing so only so they can enjoy it in the privacy of their own home. What good is it for them to struggle with the layout of the console? How does that allow them to create new and interesting patterns to enjoy? Are you seriously advocating that frustration needs to be part of the process?

You might consider that instead of all of those old farts holding out on you - it's YOUR attitude that's the key to your ongoing angst about your predecessors.

They didn't hold out on me. I was one of the lucky ones. I got taken under the wing of a company that was doing shows, and I learned from them. Not coincidentally, they are also members of PL. But my story is the exception, not the rule.

If you had been around when this forum was first started, you would have heard the stories of frustrated hobbyists who were so happy to come here and finally get ANSWERS to their questions. I see the value in that, and anything that threatens it makes me utterly furious.

My entire first comment was, "You don't have time in a performance to look for much less read labels.

And did you notice that I didn't comment on that post of yours? My first post came later, when you said:

You seem to be confusing making something more accessable and making something better

You said that in response to Doc's very logical suggestions for improvements to the labeling. Note that the quote above is not the same thing as "Making something accessible isn't the same thing that makes it revolutionary..." You are conveniently changing your words here for the sake of your argument, and it won't fly.

I agree that making something more accessible is not revolutionary IN AND OF ITSELF. But it *is* a good thing nonetheless. Your original statement, however, was that accessible is not the same as better, and THAT is the point that I commented on.

Anyone who argues that making something more accessible to hobbyists and/or enthusiasts is bad is clearly an elitist who doesn't want their "secrets" getting out. That is what got my dander up.

If you have, in fact, been arguing all this time that labels are bad only because they might hold back a true genius from learning how to operate the console, then while I disagree with your conclusion, I don't really have a problem with it. But that's NOT what you posted in the thread that I quoted.

you’re going to have to step back from the personal attacks if you expect to change someone’s mind.

*I'm* going to have to step back from personal attacks? Let me remind you that you're the one who said "labels are for dilettantes". Given the enormous effort that went into this console, how in the hell can that not be construed as a personal attack?

How many live shows have you done on an Analog Console?

I don't own an analog console. Or rather, I don't own one for commercial work. I actually own two, but one is in pieces and the other is nowhere near advanced enough for today's audiences, so I don't use it for shows.

However, even if I had one of DZ's new units, I don't know that I'd use it exclusively for a single show. I can do quite a bit more with modern tools. That's not to say that analog doesn't have a place anymore, but by and large the market has moved on.

You pretended to misunderstand the intent for the sake the argument you're trying to win...

No, I honestly answered your question. I had assumed that you were going to make the case that if I had never done a commercial show, I shouldn't be commenting on what makes something "professional". And while I'm not in the class of some of the larger operators, I have done quite a few shows, and I definitely know the difference between a professional operator and a garage-band reject who shows up with his Fischer-Price "My First Laser Projector"...

If you need labels - you're holding yourself back.

Sure, at *some* point you memorize the controls. But in the mean time, why struggle? Every piece of commercial electronics comes with labels, including high-end audio, video, lighting and laser equipment. I honestly can't see why you keep coming back to this, especially given the fact that the console isn't even aimed at the professional market. As stated before, the people buying this thing aren't touring with popular artists. They're doing shows in their living rooms.

So you don’t employ preprogrammed sequences of frames?

Usually they're single frames. Some of the beam and atmospheric effects are sequences though.

Press the button labeled bridge and let it run?

Huh? Do you mean like a frame of the golden gate? No, I don't do that. I already said I don't do graphics shows, with the exception of the two I've already mentioned.

Or did you mean like the bridge verse in a song? In that case, again the answer is no. You listen to the song, you watch what the lighting director is doing, and you select a frame that looks good. Hit the enable output button, and start playing with the Midi controller.

Now watch the lights and try to keep your color changes in sync. Flip to another frame and tweak the rotation. Can you get it on the beat? Great. Now grab the sliders and move it around. Chop the frame rate down to 1/5 and watch everything get staccato. Smooth it back out, then blackout for the drop...

if you could actually control the Color Modulation intimately in real time it might have been mind blowing, but that part isn’t built yet.

It's coming though. DZ and I talked about it last weekend. In the mean time, however, having indirect color control via Pangolin's abstract controls is about the best you can do for now.

you’re so poisoned about something (real or imagined) that you’d dismiss that as bragging too.

That's where you're wrong. I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong. And if I've completely miss-characterized your intentions, then I'll apologize. But I don't see how you can reconcile your statements with the stated goal of this website, which is the open sharing of information.

It would be so nice to retire to the “home for washed-up has-beens” feeling that the future of lasers as an Art was in good hands.

Then come out to a Laser Enthusiast's Meeting and see what the new crop of laserists is doing. Offer to help train people. Hell, sit down on a console and show us how it's done. After all, if you're really that worried about the future of lasers as an Art, shouldn't you be more involved in the process of introducing people to it?

Adam

[DZ]

Hey guys, I appreciate all the compliments as well as the heated discussions about this project. Everyone has their own perspectives and are very passionate about them. I had no doubt that this would probably bring about some heated debates. I can certainly understand the labeling thing, but also understand laserist perspective as well. When working in a planetarium I remember the console we had to run the star projector was beautifully backlit, which was wonderful when I first started the job. Once I knew what all the controls did it was an annoyance and found that running the thing by touch alone was the proper way. I think it's important to have a console well labelled, after a few hours of use you wont need the labelling, but it does help get you started.

Anyway, many thanks guys, I'm quite surprised about all the work I have to do now! But I'll get it done!

[laserist]

Sorry - I was investing so much time fulfilling buffo's expectations of a washed up has-been that I delayed saying, Well Done! In this case, I do think that the future of lasers as an Art is in good hands...

Brian Wirthlin

Hey guys, I appreciate all the compliments as well as the heated discussions about this project. Everyone has their own perspectives and are very passionate about them. I had no doubt that this would probably bring about some heated debates. I can certainly understand the labeling thing, but also understand laserist perspective as well. When working in a planetarium I remember the console we had to run the star projector was beautifully backlit, which was wonderful when I first started the job. Once I knew what all the controls did it was an annoyance and found that running the thing by touch alone was the proper way. I think it's important to have a console well labelled, after a few hours of use you wont need the labelling, but it does help get you started.

Anyway, many thanks guys, I'm quite surprised about all the work I have to do now! But I'll get it done!

[DZ]

I had the opportunity to run this console in a planetarium the other day, on a Skylase!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCT_71T7OP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl40MRWtes

Zenith is about 40 feet and the diameter is 60 feet. Damn sure wish I could afford a dome and a skylase!

[Junktronix]

Excellent work. I'm also very interested in one, but I'll probably wait until you've added color modulation. Any idea what the time frame for that is going to be?

[DZ]

Excellent work. I'm also very interested in one, but I'll probably wait until you've added color modulation. Any idea what the time frame for that is going to be?

I really don't have a clue to be honest, it's a project I want to get to but I have several consoles in the pipeline to build. The good news is another forum member is already working on a color mod circuit design that might work perfectly with the console. So it might be right around the corner, or it may be a while, I'm just not sure.