winni need some help and suggestion

[The_Doctor]

Given that part of this scheme is to run some donations to PL too, and that some measure of completeness might be in order (otherwise how do we know enough is enough?) could Spec help? Some page with a script on it, that keeps count and issues a PayPal invoice sending direct to Winni? And to PL? Two separate payments, that way no single payment gets done twice, and we can all see how much got raised. As an unusual extra raise for PL, this might be in Spec's interest to code for it. He seems to know code very well for things like this, better than the host of any other forum I've posted on. This way we'll have a mechanism that can be used again if ever needed. (But the idea is that if we all own a right to something more than passing opinion, it gets less likely that anyone will risk that much damage to reputation and chance at work in lasers, so we might never need it again. But making it a permanent possibility can be good deterrent.)

Edit: I know that Spec has a donation thing anyway, but that's not the same. People with no PayPal account can't use it anyway, and some may prefer a one-off donation. PayPal invoice works best for that, because it can direct to one single routed payment, and does not require a PayPal account for the sender, only some card that will work.

[hakzaw1]

Very sad thread--Always saddens me when someone is kind and trusting but this is seen as weakness by a few who must take advantage with a prison mentality- "The weak MUST be scammed and its their own fault"
AND prison is where this ass-hat belongs. The best defense to libel or slander is the truth. And I think we can be 99.99% that Winni is being truthful ATM. A hall of SHAME should be started here so this guy can be seen there.
Both laser(major) forums are VERY much an extended family- Most at these members are truly great people who we can count on to have our backs. In the last three years forum members have proven this many times with the help extended to those in need. And when these things happen I am always impressed and touched and very happy to help.. When its some kind of act of God-Like Leo in Brazil getting his home flooded- James losing his beloved wife in a car accident- Rob nearly losing his home to foreclosure and Spec long trip to a better place with much better people around him we can't be mad at any person.

but this is a different situation- its a fellow human being that has reminded us once again that the .01% is and always will be out there. I am in not position to help as much as I would like but 10$ will not be missed by me.

Doing this helps the person scammed to know we are NOT all like this. And while , in the future, more care needs to be taken to keep this from happening again, our help will keep nice people like Winni from changing how she treat the rest of her customers.

I have a name that also belongs next to this guy. He tried hard to scam me and only by luck did I escape.
He lied to me in emails and on the phone-and had I not recently sold the items he was trying to steal from me, he would have scammed me too.
His name is Sam Stark or San Dino or Sam Schtark or maybe none of these-- his company is in Boca Raton Florida--Liquid Lasers. They sell lasers for medical uses. Their scheme works like the typical style of scamming-, make a few buys then set the seller up for a large buy with promises of a realy huge order in the near future.
At the same time he was trying to steal from me he scammed my great and dear friend Gray at Jetlasers in China.
not sure the total amount stolen but i fear is was even more than Aton stole from Winni. He had an accomplice
in this scheme and it was PoopPal. he claimed the box arrived empty and put on a big act of how much damage this loss was to Liquid Lasers and this was believed by Gray so he sent a second box of lasers. Liquid Lasers had filed a dispute & PP froze the account of JETLASERS and this kept JL from being able to use the many thousands of dollars in their account. so Gray sent a SECOND box of lasers- wanted to do the right thing and not yet know he was being scammed...


this would be a sad story at his time BUT it got much worse. The second box Sam claimed had only rocks in it. (iirc the box weight more than 8 pounds) and PP instead of doing the right and just thing refunded Sam all the money he sent for the buy-- So Sam gets two orders of lasers free and got 100% of his money back. All this would be a sad story even if Gray were just another sales rep BUT he is far from that. In all the cases mentioned above (except Spec) Gray send thousands of dollars in both cash and items to help those forum members in dire need.

Gray paid an overdue light bill for Rob so his power would not be turned off. and he sent MANY high cost lasers to Rob to review as 'samples' and continues to still do this( Rob is disabled with a wife who has cancer)- he tells Rob to feel free to sell these after the review so bills can be paid.( and with Gray's and the forum's donations Rob's house was saved from foreclosure) and Gray is NOT the CEO of JL not even close- I can truthfully say that working with Gray on eight group buys in ~3 years has made me a better person. Gray, by his actions always restores my faith in my fellow man. Google 'Sam Liquid Laser' to read more of the details.

WE raised more than 1000$ for James in a very short time. He was also very seriously injured(nearly lost an arm) when their car had a sudden tire blow out and rolled over. His wife ( wearing a seatbelt) was killed and James (not wearing his) had many injuries including a crushed arm)

In order to raise more money faster I asked forum members to donate some laser items and we would draw names based on each 10$ sent to the PP account of James- IIRC it was more than 12 items and some were of great value-(Jerry donated a Laserbee LPM for example) I was touched when almost all who donated cash asked that if their name was drawn for a 'prize' that this item be sent to James instead. Both laser forums are truly an extended families and all these people make me very proud of the forums. Whoever has the PP addy where we can send a donation to Winni please PM it to me. i can only spare a very little but feel Winni is very deserving of any help I can send.

I have learned form past experience that it is somewhat SOP in China that when things like this happen the salesperson is forced to pay their employer back for such losses or lose their jobs.

There are legal ways to do some things that will effect these scammers and I hope each way is FULLY used to punish these scumbags. HOWEVER, I would say, such actions should NOT be mentioned in the public forums.
For a good read search 'Scamming scammers'- there is a group that knows every trick and they go after scammers and let them know the feeling they inflict on their prey. I think both Aton and Sam may soon know what it feels like to be on the other end of a scam.

hak

[Bradfo69]

Buffo and I have discussed it and a collection fund will be started shortly. Details to follow. I will provide a paypal e-mail address that you may send donations to. If it's sent as a gift/payment to friends there is no fee to you, me or Winnie if it comes out of a bank account or your exisiting paypal balance. There is only a fee to you if you choose to put your donation on a credit card. I will also give you the choice to be listed as annonymous or post the name and amount. Everything will be transparent and updated daily. I think we're also going to have a percentage be given to PL. That will be in my next post with formal details along with a start/stop date.

[Bradfo69]

Ok, here's the deal. Starting today and running until Thanksgiving day, people may make donations towards helping Winni in her financial situation caused by one of our members. I will act as the intermediary and paypal donations may be made to:
Bradfo69@aol.com. You want to be sure to send it as a gift - not paying for a good or service. If it comes from your bank account or a Paypal balance there is no fee. 5% of the total collected will be given to our illustrious founder of this great forum for it's upkeep. I will update this thread daily with donations received. If you choose to be annonymous, that's fine. But, it will run just like the lists in a group buy. At the end I will post screen shots showing money sent to Winni as well as to Spec. The only thing still up in the air is whether Winni has a paypal account to receive funds. If not, then I'll talk to her about a bank transfer. I will be sending the people in this thread who offered, a PM linking them back to the thread as a reminder.

As has been previously discussed, there was really no way of doing a raffle of a donated item or anything like that, lest Paypal shut me down and... if I can't buy and pay for laser crap... that's not a good thing. (Err.. I don't think!) And organizing a show, while a cool idea is probably fraught with logistical issues.

I'll start:

Bradfo69 - $50 as committed.

[Ghoffman]

Count me in for sure.

[Bradfo69]

Also, just realized it may be helpful to add your screen name in the "note to recipient" box on Paypal so I can post it properly.

[Bradfo69]

Bradfo69 - $50
Galvonaut - $45
kecked - $100
anonymous - $60 + 25 for PL verbally promised tomorrow

[dnar]

While I am dissapointed this happened, a few thoughts from me.

1. I hope Winnie is not so trusting in the future
2. It urks me this turkey got away with it, and now its out of our pockets
3. So, I would love to track this guy down and sort him out
4. Revenge is a dish best served cold....

[The_Doctor]

It is also said that when planning revenge, budget for at least two graves...

I think it works well enough this way, it's not like the guy can tell us to butt out with no right to an opinion. It's a large group of people owning his debt. That's a power he'll regret losing, and he'll eventually want to make changes that cost him more, just trying to get out from under it. Bit of collective action goes a long way, no matter which way we look at it.

[Galvonaut]

While I am dissapointed this happened, a few thoughts from me.

1. I hope Winnie is not so trusting in the future
2. It urks me this turkey got away with it, and now its out of our pockets
3. So, I would love to track this guy down and sort him out
4. Revenge is a dish best served cold....

Regarding point #1 it only takes a few conversations with already trusted members to find out what level of trust should be allowed to other members.

Regarding point #2 I've donated because of Winni, not the OP

Points 3&4 aren't worth considering. Seeking revenge eats you up. This guy can't have his cake and eat it. He will learn how to treat other people one day and look back at this episode with his head hung in shame.

Keith