MOBO Awards 2013 - Major ***FAIL***

[WookieBoy]

Oh my.... The estrogen level is a bit high this evening!

Put your handbags away girls please!



Now everyone's calmed down a bit, taken a deep breath and stepped away from the hardware, I'd like to make a serious point from this "hypothetical assumption"...


In my experience (20 odd years in touring, live production, TV etc) if a situation arises that could lead to litigation if the show isn't stopped/altered then the show is stopped or altered. Simple as!
Even more so in the last few years, than ever previously, since HSE has started crawling all over the live events industry like a bad case of genital mites!
Oh sure, there'll be screaming and shouting from the artistic side if you stop things for a safety reason (ie directors, Lighting Cameraman. Producers and whatnot) but at the end of the day, they (and me!) are all paid (and for the most part, hired) by the production company.... And it's them that'll get sued and hung out to dry with the operator/show co if things go to court.
If the production company doesn't call you back BECAUSE YOU DID THE RIGHT THING, then frankly you're better off not getting that call anyway, because sooner or later bad things do happen and if you're not on the right side of your duty of care, YOU GO TO JAIL my friend. Generally penniless as well since the 'victims' lawyers go after your civil assets (ie your house, car, any money you have/might have owed to you for the rest of your life) while the HSE lawyers go after you in the criminal courts.
Besides, lets face it, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to do a re-take or skip a shot than fight a lawsuit for negligence and liability 'cos you breached your 'duty of care' obligations to a member of the public (or for that matter, performer or crew!). And these days, the lawyers will go after anyone, for any reason, with only the slightest whiff of there being a small possibility of the being a hint of a case to answer...
As the catchphrase says... "Where there's blame, there's a claim"...

And there endeth my lesson for today. Make of it what you will...



Carry on!

[norty303]

Push button lose show and client. Dont push button then things like these threads pop up with people bad mouthing left right and centre.

I think the point has been missed in amongst all of the derailment, which is...

"Don't push the button and someone could lose their sight"

We move on and learn

Hopefully, this is the most important thing you've written.

As observers to the situation, we may all struggle with the split second decision, but I would hope that this might help us make our minds up should we find ourselves in a similar situation. Push the button.

The legal arguments over who gets paid if the button is pressed are probably better than the ones if someone lost an eye. I'm sure the TV company would distance themselves significantly from any suggestion that they would condone unsafe practise in order for the show to go on.

As with all H&S issues, people are happy to be complicit until it's their arse on the line.

[laserman]

Just a pet hate of mine Wookie when people bad mouth companies in this way. I would stick up for them if it was PRG Neg Earth ER or LHL. Its a discussion not a thread to try and ruin a company for what ever reasons, its life things happen and people learn from it. Dam I had a dodgy rig when I was learning and I learned from that we all do, its what life is about learning from others not a case of setting out and just having a slagging match, no matter what it is about.
If people dont agree with what I wrote in this post then I think I am in the wrong "discussion" group

[laserman]

I agree with you Norty 100% and we all can learn. If in doubt push the button.

[Galvonaut]

Sorry Norty I was one of the crew chiefs and put on large events too. I am a sub and work for many clients across the Uk and Abroad.
Sorry about the rant just winds me up when people set out to try and make a company look like bad when they're not.

Pyro guys were BPM effects and did some great stuff. very good if not best I have seen for this type of effects indoor.

I have been in the lighting industry for around 16 years started of at Sammies back in the day at Pinewood. I have hired Laser Hire on many occasions for gigs for TV film and for live events and they have done an outstanding job and produced great outcomes. Its a shame when things like this happen and gets taken to whole new levels.

I will speak to the guys tomorrow and see what is going on as this has just been blown right out of the water and I am getting it in the neck from all angles. But I feel I need to protect those I call my friends from attacks like this.
When people work on live events that are broadcast live on TV and that effect makes the show its hard to make that choice what would you do ??

I am glad I wasnt it that position as I dont know what I would have done?

Its good to hear your side on the issues and I am sure it was a one off. I know what it can be like on site when you have producers, directors and everyone else even the artists on your back wanting the world.

Either way it was a no win situation. Push button lose show and client. Dont push button then things like these threads pop up with people bad mouthing left right and centre. The company should have never been named like this. Stuff happens we get over it and implement changes to stop things happening like this again. We move on and learn.

Hey Laserman

I'm sorry your first visit to PL has been so negative. As you can probably tell, we are all pretty passionate about lasers and some (most) of us about safety.
There is the odd thread that does get heated and we do go off topic on a regular basis, however we are, in the main, a very knowledgeable, helpful and kind place. There are many industry leaders here and a lot of highly addicted amateurs (like me) who do all they can to help and get on with other forum members.

It would be great if the insults stopped (from all directions) and this thread and your presence continued the way we all like it. I'm sure you would gain a lot from PL, the same as most of us here have.

Keith

[laserman]

Thank you Keith I appreciate it. I like to read the forum and I have learned a lot from it. I am very interested in Lasers, yet my forthcoming was lighting and have done this for many years for many tours. It just got to me as I know thing happen and I dont like people trying to ruin companies when they'tr very capable of what they do. We all make mistakes.
My RAMS docs change and get bigger for each gig, as we are also learning from each rig.

I have purchased a QM box to take me further into the world of lasers. I like to program and hopefully I can ask for help on here when I get the time to start programming.

Thank you again Keith has made the thread feel better and not so negative.

I have seen many shows from LHL and from ER and to date all been good and have me speechless.

[MICKEY S UK]

I work as the technical manager of a live music venue.I have experience with lasers

If this happened in my venue I would have pressed the Estop or if necessary removed power from the unit. End of.

At the point the unit was "stepped on" the show fell out of the the moral remit of HSG95 and as there are staff present the legal remit of the The Control of Artificial Optical

Radiation at Work Regulations 2010. At that point any risk assessment became null and void probably along with any insurance.

From HSG95:

Mounting of equipment
25
Laser systems and all associated effects devices should be secure against
inadvertent displacement or misalignment. It may also be necessary to protect the
installation from unauthorised configuration changes.
Display area demarcation and restriction of access
26
Any area where accessible emissions could lead to personal exposures in
excess of the applicable Maximum Permissible Exposure value (MPE; see Appendix
A) during normal operation of the installation and during maintenance and setting
up, should be identified by the supplier and communicated to the user in hand-over
documentation.
27
These locations should be designated by warning signs as laser hazard
areas, and entry to them restricted to authorised people, who will take appropriate
precautions, eg wearing eye protection.
28
Suppliers who are not installers should provide information about installation
design and operational safety so that the installer can make the necessary display
area demarcations.

If "stepping on" the unit is possible and can cause it move it was not installed correctly.

When siting lasers around people who may not be aware of the dangers more care should be taken. Fuck the show. Swearing for emphasis.

Finally this sends out the totally wrong message to inexperienced users of relatively cheaply available lasers that it is ok to put beams into peoples faces.

[Galvonaut]

Thank you Keith I appreciate it. I like to read the forum and I have learned a lot from it. I am very interested in Lasers, yet my forthcoming was lighting and have done this for many years for many tours. It just got to me as I know thing happen and I dont like people trying to ruin companies when they'tr very capable of what they do. We all make mistakes.
My RAMS docs change and get bigger for each gig, as we are also learning from each rig.

I have purchased a QM box to take me further into the world of lasers. I like to program and hopefully I can ask for help on here when I get the time to start programming.

Thank you again Keith has made the thread feel better and not so negative.

I have seen many shows from LHL and from ER and to date all been good and have me speechless.

That's ok Laserman. We are mainly here to support each other and learn from each other. If that ceases, there's little point being here and I'd join Bebo!

Trying to keep the thread on track (quite unusual for PL), I had an interesting experience at a recent private party I do with friends. I installed my 2 baby lasers which are rated at 500mW each but actually output ~370mW (thanks Rob Stanwax for measuring at the UKLEM) at a lower height than the prescribed safety limit as it was a small party of mainly friends who are usually very predictable. The hot end of the beams were at 3m and the cooler end at about 2.5 meters.
Relatively late in the night, I spotted some arms in the lasers - someone was on his friends shoulders, reaching into the beams.
Despite this low power and the fact that I have had more powerful beams in my eyes, I hit stop instantly. Within seconds the guy was off his shoulders and I restarted the show. I don't think beams even hit his face but my reaction was just that. Instant!

I think once people understand the risks that lasers pose to eye-sight, it should be a reaction. I had not measured the MPE of my beams as I am awaiting delivery of a Lasercheck, so as far as I was concerned, someone was too close to what I considered an above MPE beam.

Lots of people have said they wouldn't know how they would react in the same situation as the Mobos but I know how I'd like to react, live video broadcast or not. As this thread shows, it's not just other peoples' eyesight you could lose, it could also be you livelihood, reputation or freedom.

Despite all this, I have learnt a lot from this thread. I've actually never thought about a situation where I may be providing lasers in a live TV situation, in front of so many people. Now I have and I've decided how I will react if this situation ever comes up (it more likely than not, won't)!

Keith

[Photonbeam]

I shut down the lasers on a KISS concert when there were audience members spotted in unauthorized areas too close to the beam termination points. I was called into the dressing room after the show and chewed out by the band but I knew I did the right thing. Safety first.

[Displaser]

From HSG95:

Mounting of equipment
25
Laser systems and all associated effects devices should be secure against
inadvertent displacement or misalignment. It may also be necessary to protect the
installation from unauthorised configuration changes.
Display area demarcation and restriction of access

Exactly - Thank you! I don't believe this incident can be defended, as the equipment was not secured as it should have been. I've been to events before, where bounce mirrors could be moved by people at the edge of the stage. People doing shows have to envision all possible scenarios - people standing or chairs, mylar balloons, silver beer cans, etc.