MOBO Awards 2013 - Major ***FAIL***

[The_Doctor]

When people work on live events that are broadcast live on TV and that effect makes the show its hard to make that choice what would you do ??

If I had the kind of control you said the operator had when he allegedly reduced the output, I'd turn the laser off immediately. In the immortal words of Monk, "You'll thank me later".

Any notion that this is a 'moral dilemma' is wrong. It's a total no-brainer decision. Something as dumb as a tilt switch (or mercury-filled vibration switch) in the projector's interlock circuit can (and should!) have made the decision.

Who gives a damn about one show when they're looking at a wreck of their public relations that will haunt them for months? Whether you look at damage limitation from the perspective of cover-thine-arse, or the greater public good, or whatever, the decision is the same, and should have been made instantly and completely. Even Ghost Dog's seven-breaths decisions are an eternity compared to what that one should have been.

[The_Doctor]

...mylar balloons, silver beer cans, etc.

That's an interesting situation.
I imagine that in any show involving light, there is a need to prevent spill from dominating (or at least spoiling) an intended effect. As lasers are particularly dangerous, and as diodes can die from strong retroreflection, it seems reasonable to assume that in any good installation the amount of light from any laser coming back to it even for a microsecond is low.

I propose two methods that I'm not sure are a standard in current interlock systems:
1. Three fast photodiodes, each behind a filter designed for the wavelength of the projector's R,G and B channel's wavelengths, fed from a tiny telescope that views closely parallel to the composite beam before hitting the scanner mirrors (via 'edging' mirror if needed), to detect any return of this light above some preset threshold.
2. A small ball-joint mount attached to the underside of the projector, attaching to it a small hollow tube, weighted at its low end, and containing a small accelerometer and a tilt switch, such that when the projector is secured, this attachment settles by gravity, and the last mechanical move by its installer is to tighten a small handwheel or wing nut to secure the sensor rigidly against fast AND slow changes to its orientation.

Both of these systems should have instant, but not over-riding control of the interlock. Meaning: if they make a decision, that decision is instant and final, but if some other order to turn off arises, their status must not countermand that order.

Given the cost and technical difficulty of making high power projectors, this system would be very cheap and easy to do in comparison. I imagine that its existence and maintenance will be a future requirement to get insurance for a show using the device.

Edit: I suspect that the first safeguard method might be tough to do in lasers with lots of spill in their own optics, but in practise it may still be possible to find a useable threshold. The main thing is to check that all mirrors, beamstops, blackened walls or whatever, do not result in light returned at a strength that can cause a false trigger.

[Sandstorm]

My 2 cents.

In MOBO distance was too short and intensity too high to even think about leaving that laser beaming. And it was BEAMS. not fast scan through (which I almost consider like evil at such distance), but clear, stationary, intensive beams. Right into faces. Solution - turn off immediately.
Now, when I watched that video my first thought was, the operator must haven't seen this... which is no excuse, since you MUST know where you're shooting if you're working with lasers. Oh well, but these things happen, maybe he really didn't see.

Ok, next, when I watched their promo video... that made me laugh. Come on, if any of those guys where looking opposite direction (talking about that yellow beam)? Well there was some more intensity than in MOBO... and such thing goes clear and flat into promotional video?

T3ST video made one more point... once again, stationary bright beams... however, in this case they could have made an agreement with singer, explained the risks etc., but that is still dam unsafe...

After MOBO I thought sh*t happens... after seeing other 2 I assume it's company's policy: unsafe work. I, by no means, judge them like incompetent show makers (I do believe they manage to make a good, awesome, outstanding and wicked show), but in laser safety - doesn't qualify...

laserman, if you spill out, you make your case worse... so better keep calm. you shouldn't rant on everyone about ruining company's name... they know what they're talking and they're talking right thing - you can't explain to the blinded watcher that show was cool and exciting, and it was worth it. Even though this is my first post in PL (not the best thread to start...) I have some experience standing in the event and NOT releasing all the rabbits from the hats, while organizers shout at me: "DO IT! GO! YOU #$@@*^%)@& FOR @#$% SAKE LAUNCH IT!", because it's unsafe at the particular moment. and they usually thank afterwards, when they get a thorough explanation why I didn't do that.

Company has to choose - be cool or be safe... I'd choose the latter... From those 3 video LHL seems to be choosing first one... Good luck for them, I really whish that nothing bad happens

[Galvonaut]

Welcome to PL Sandstorm

We aren't always like this, so sorry if you joined the forum for the drama

laserman, if you spill out, you make your case worse... so better keep calm. you shouldn't rant on everyone about ruining company's name... they know what they're talking and they're talking right thing - you can't explain to the blinded watcher that show was cool and exciting, and it was worth it.

Great first post and that is exactly what it comes down to. If someone damaged my eyesight I wouldn't give a flying hoot what the show looked like or how much they were paid.

A suggestion to Laser Hire London - not sure what others think? If the MPE of the laser was not known, inform the producer of the show that people could have retinal damage and that they should seek medical advice immediately. They might not have - but if they do, the quicker they seek medical attention, the less permanent damage will be inflicted.
The accident isn't over until all options to remedy the incident have been taken.

Keith

[laserman]

I agree sandstorm. I am just having my point. just seems like people are on a mission to make an arguement. Yes the op most probably didnt see the beams which will be why this happened.
I just dont like it when people go on about unsafe practices when if you look at there work and other laser companies work you will see the same.
Andy put up some videos, then took them down, why as they could also be deemed unsafe. And when they go on about great shows.

This post has gone completely off thread at points.

I can quite easily go on all the web sites of major laser companies, yes the top boys in the industry and pull things apart from what I have been told in this forum. I joined this group to help me understand lasers better and hopefully move across to laser design at some point to enable me to have great skill in other areas. I am a qualified Rigger and been a lampy for many years. Not once in all my years on the blue room have I come across such negative attitudes and unprofessional comments.


Yes things should have been different things should not have happened, but they did.
Its all a question of what if . . . I think that this post should be toned down and posts not becoming shity with each other.

I know stories about companies in most fields but it doesn't mean I will slag them down as incompetent.

No matter what power of your projector, whether 100mw or 1w or greater. Direct eye exposure is bad. Lets dissect what can be done, not should have been done. To enable things like this not to happen in the future.

LHL & ER produce great shows, Have a look at the other players in the industry, are you going to start on them to with their beam exposures, have a look at their images ??

HSG " Health and Safety GUIDELINES"are guidelines which can be interpreted by individuals in different ways.

Plasa are making new regulations for the industry and these companies will have a major say in these rules so we should be careful what we say about who or what as it may bite us back in the bum which we don't want to happen. I know I don't my kids won't be happy if I am out of work. So I suggest we all take a deep breath and be constructive in what we say, or I feel this thread is just for amateurs not professionals.

Feel the love and we can all move forward together.

[andy_con]

lets hope laser hire London aren't involved in the new HSG otherwise we are all screwed lol

[Galvonaut]

HSG " Health and Safety GUIDELINES"are guidelines which can be interpreted by individuals in different ways.

It's a little dangerous highlighting the word guidelines like this. The Control of Artificial Optical Radiation at Work Regulations 2010 set out legally binding MPE limits for lasers. The health and safety at work act also sets out duties in regard to employees and other people in the work place.

The reality is that there are legally binding limits. The guidance is there to help you understand what you can do to ensure that you do not break the law.

The Health and Safety Executive has guidance for all sorts of dangerous things. Explosives, chainsaws, lasers, anything that is REALLY dangerous. They give guidance because people need to understand how they can be safe, not so that they can negate their responsibilities under law.

This is a common misunderstanding that I have seen on many an occasion. Another one is that there needs to be no risk whatsoever. This is untrue - but not of activities that have a severe consequence!

Keith

[norty303]

Yes the op most probably didnt see the beams which will be why this happened

Look, you can't have it all ways.

From your first post in the thread...

The unit wasn't outputting hardly any power as the operator took the output right down. Green always looks bright on TV.

And subsequently, it has been argued that if they had control, why not just turn it off? I put forward the suggestion that if the projector was using a common DAC with some of the other heads, then turning it off would've taken out sections of the show. However, the brightness of the other beams doesn't seem to bear that premise out.

Regardless, I can see you intentions have been good from the start, but your arguments have been a little incoherent and inconsistent.

This post has gone completely off thread at points.

I think mostly (apart from the dodgy pics and vids you and Andy posted around page 2) this thread has been remarkably consistently about safe laser shows, and one in particular that appears to not be.

"Yes yes, but everyone is doing it" (be 'it' being crowd scanning in the US, high power stationary beams into audiences, etc) is not really a valid defence (your honour).

Equally, a company having been around for years is not neccessarilly a good indication of them being safe, in fact in my experience, I've found the reverse to be true in the higher proportion of cases (or rather, when I've spoken to companies regarding safety at events, its been the higher proportion who've simply responded 'Yes, been doing it years mate' who have some of the more questionable practices)

Plasa are making new regulations for the industry and these companies will have a major say in these rules so we should be careful what we say about who or what as it may bite us back in the bum which we don't want to happen.

Yes, funnily enough, some of those companies are here, and even commenting in this thread.
I'm unclear how highlighting dangerous practice could possibly bite us on the bottom, unless you would specifically want there to be 'less' regulation (which is all but non existent currently) in order to 'get away' with more dubious practice. I doubt any direct specific action would take place as a result of this thread (unless one of those people in the front was considered an employee/staff). As it stands, this industry pretty much only has its peers to respond to regarding H&S, partly because it is so complex an issue requiring a certain amount of specialist knowledge, and partly because there is so little active regulation.

Whilst HSG 95 are guidelines, they are frequently tied up in law by being stated as guidelines to be adhered to in order for venue licenses to be approved/maintained.

I think that if Blueroom didn't have very strong moderation, more beans would be spilled tbh. Having an 'industry wall of silence' doesn't do much good in the long run I don't think. This forum is more akin to Speakerplans where people can feel free to call BS if they smell BS (and regarding speaker specifications, there is much BS to be smelled!!)


P.S.

It's a little dangerous highlighting the word guidelines like this. The Control of Artificial Optical Radiation at Work Regulations 2010 set out legally binding MPE limits for lasers. The health and safety at work act also sets out duties in regard to employees and other people in the work place.

The reality is that there are legally binding limits. The guidance is there to help you understand what you can do to ensure that you do not break the law.

Agreed. You can bet your bottom that if you found yourself in court, one of the first things they'd look at is whether or not you were complying with the appropriate industry guidelines, and asking for reasons/justification for deviation.

[White-Light]

I work as the technical manager of a live music venue.I have experience with lasers

If this happened in my venue I would have pressed the Estop or if necessary removed power from the unit. End of.

At the point the unit was "stepped on" the show fell out of the the moral remit of HSG95 and as there are staff present the legal remit of the The Control of Artificial Optical

When siting lasers around people who may not be aware of the dangers more care should be taken. Fuck the show. Swearing for emphasis.

This to me is the key point here.

Sh8t happens. I agree with Greg and Mickey that maybe it would have been wise to take extra precautions to ensure the laser couldn't have been knocked out of position. I'm not going to pass further comment for legal reasons as I don't know the full circumstances and I'm not going to criticise the company involved.

At the end of the day, it happened. However, once it's happened the show takes 2nd place and the priority is with safety. If you're concerned about the show then in my book you hit the estop, someone races on stage, unplugs the power cord from the affected laser and then the estop is reset and the show restarts with that laser offline.

There's also a lot of mud slinging going on here for no reason. Beams are not dangerous simply because they're in an audience. They're only dangerous if unmeasured and outside of safe limits ie MPE. Simply pulling videos off Youtube or wherever showing audience scanning does not prove anything was unsafe as you don't know whether powers were measured and adjusted. I'm pretty sure that at a trade show a big name company put a bank of 1W lasers into the face of its audience from 5m. However it was safe. Why because the beams were diverged with safety lenses and the irradiance had been measured to within MPE. That's the difference. They were verified safe and not an unknown quantity.

Where unmeasured beams are going into an audience through an unforseen event, then there is only one option, stop. Whatever the circumstances that led to this happening, in my opinion the only mistake here post the laser collapse was not hitting the estop immediately, no hesitation. Reducing power doesn't guarantee safety. With a green laser you can probably reduce brightness to around 30-40% depending on how well the laser modulates before it extinguishes entirely. However, without prior measurement how do you know that 30% brightness at that distance with that diameter beam and divergence is safe? You don't. I'm not saying anything here was unsafe btw. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, safer decisions could have been made after the collapse. Only my opinion though.

[laserman]

This to me is the key point here.

Sh8t happens. I agree with Greg and Mickey that maybe it would have been wise to take extra precautions to ensure the laser couldn't have been knocked out of position. I'm not going to pass further comment for legal reasons as I don't know the full circumstances and I'm not going to criticise the company involved.

At the end of the day, it happened. However, once it's happened the show takes 2nd place and the priority is with safety. If you're concerned about the show then in my book you hit the estop, someone races on stage, unplugs the power cord from the affected laser and then the estop is reset and the show restarts with that laser offline.

There's also a lot of mud slinging going on here for no reason. Beams are not dangerous simply because they're in an audience. They're only dangerous if unmeasured and outside of safe limits ie MPE. Simply pulling videos off Youtube or wherever showing audience scanning does not prove anything was unsafe as you don't know whether powers were measured and adjusted. I'm pretty sure that at a trade show a big name company put a bank of 1W lasers into the face of its audience from 5m. However it was safe. Why because the beams were diverged with safety lenses and the irradiance had been measured to within MPE. That's the difference. They were verified safe and not an unknown quantity.

Where unmeasured beams are going into an audience through an unforseen event, then there is only one option, stop. Whatever the circumstances that led to this happening, in my opinion the only mistake here post the laser collapse was not hitting the estop immediately, no hesitation. Reducing power doesn't guarantee safety. With a green laser you can probably reduce brightness to around 30-40% depending on how well the laser modulates before it extinguishes entirely. However, without prior measurement how do you know that 30% brightness at that distance with that diameter beam and divergence is safe? You don't. I'm not saying anything here was unsafe btw. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, safer decisions could have been made after the collapse. Only my opinion though.

I agree with you 100% White light, hopefully now we can draw this to a close and move on with things. I want to learn more about lasers and how they work and all things that make them do what they do.