Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 5678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 134

Thread: MOBO Awards 2013 - Major ***FAIL***

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galvonaut View Post
    Doc, it's funny you should mention a warning actually working (especially with eye-sight).

    Since I did the LVR safety course, I printed up and laminated a few different laser safety signs which have heavy duty velcro on the back for convenient and sturdy fixing to either my tripod stands or other convenient surface.

    I imagine a few people would think it over the top and I felt a bit strange putting them up the first time. It had an amazing effect though. Firstly (and most importantly) no one went anywhere near the lasers (even though they were 3 meters up in the air) where in the past, I've had all sorts of interference. Secondly, peoples' perceptions of the show are changed, thinking that they are seeing something better just because they perceive the danger!

    I wonder if the laser that got trodden on had a big sign on or next to it warning people not to adjust the position because of LASER RADIATION? They cost pea-nuts to make yourself and in my experience (not much, I grant you) keep people away from your kit.

    Keith
    Nice. I bet it's true more often than not, too. (And I bet the few vinyl labels I was once given by David McGuiness helped me sell a few lasers too, because they looked the part as well as beign useful warnings). When I was part of various squatted gigs, doing the electrics, I often hammed up the danger element a bit, partly because it was fun to do that, and partly because if people remember it, they really do take care. I never got into the rave scene, by that time I wanted a quiet life, but I did go to at least two raves. The same thing was in those too, a sense of danger. I think people actually want it, it's part of the thrill of being there. That whole 'industrial' scene, and the use of high-vis jackets and weird goggles and all, it's all part of that same thing, the idea of being safe in a dangerous situation. It struck enough people as cool that it has become a major influence on club scenes worldwide. There's a seven floored derelict building here that I have had plenty of fun in at times past, (and my one really long poem is about that place, but I'll need a far more appropriate situation before I post that..) and that place had stairs with no rails, no glass, no walls, floors with holes, doorways to oblivion over rubble tens of feet below. People have died there, many times. But not once apparently did anyone die during a drunken rave. And it's held several. I guess danger alerts people's senses. Which does (at least) two things: scares them into takeing care, generally, and, makes fun even more fun. I actually regret not going to one of those raves. I've seen that building gaunt and empty, many times, but I've never seen it psychedilcally alive and full of people. Totally different perspective..

    I will now bow and step aside so that topics might resume.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    Nice. I bet it's true more often than not, too. (And I bet the few vinyl labels I was once given by David McGuiness helped me sell a few lasers too, because they looked the part as well as beign useful warnings). When I was part of various squatted gigs, doing the electrics, I often hammed up the danger element a bit, partly because it was fun to do that, and partly because if people remember it, they really do take care. I never got into the rave scene, by that time I wanted a quiet life, but I did go to at least two raves. The same thing was in those too, a sense of danger. I think people actually want it, it's part of the thrill of being there. That whole 'industrial' scene, and the use of high-vis jackets and weird goggles and all, it's all part of that same thing, the idea of being safe in a dangerous situation. It struck enough people as cool that it has become a major influence on club scenes worldwide. There's a seven floored derelict building here that I have had plenty of fun in at times past, (and my one really long poem is about that place, but I'll need a far more appropriate situation before I post that..) and that place had stairs with no rails, no glass, no walls, floors with holes, doorways to oblivion over rubble tens of feet below. People have died there, many times. But not once apparently did anyone die during a drunken rave. And it's held several. I guess danger alerts people's senses. Which does (at least) two things: scares them into takeing care, generally, and, makes fun even more fun. I actually regret not going to one of those raves. I've seen that building gaunt and empty, many times, but I've never seen it psychedilcally alive and full of people. Totally different perspective..

    I will now bow and step aside so that topics might resume.
    Spot on Doc. I don't think this is off topic is it? Although the thread title is about "Major***FAIL***" it is not about the show content as such, it is about safety. I've learnt a few things from this thread and I'm sure others will too. The story you recounted just reinforces my experience of safety, so next time I might tell people that the lasers will melt their faces if they're not careful!

    Keith
    Last edited by Galvonaut; 10-25-2013 at 01:18. Reason: typo

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Herts, UK
    Posts
    1,254

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by White-Light
    Doc I had jumped out of this thread
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor
    That's actually a good idea

    .....................
    A little bit werrrr, a little bit weyyyyyy, a little bit arrrrgggghhh

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    Well done. I think I am, too... Keith, I think you're right because the warnings are solid, they don't change, they come with clarity and act equally to all who see them, barring misreadings of text. A lot of work goes into symbol design. I make the point because at gigs if trouble flared, one person, pr action, might stop it, but another might aggravate it while trying to stop it. And it wasn't even predictable, so Andy is also right, sometimes it's just best to assume worst case and plan or act accordingly. I don't mean going over the top, but at least that way we can go the extra defensive mile, and make one good action that usually settles it without further risk. One thing I try to do in any of my designs of find the cheapest 'overengineered' way to protect the rest so I don't have to worry about that so much.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 10-25-2013 at 00:29.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,704

    Default

    I think we were both done with that misquote..

    Anyway, it would be helpful if Andy would share his floor mounted solution.

    As for tripping hazards, Andy I think your assessment of H&S liability is somewhat simplistic in this situation unless of course a beam block is totally unreasonable as a solution which personally I would doubt given that many regard a physical block as the gold standard. There may be more elegant ways of achieving safety though and if Andy would care to share then no doubt it would be useful to all.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    Oh man, now my sympathies go to all those who thought that done was the colour of a horse. And to all those who might have thought that a beam block might have to traverse the whole width of a stage. Likely it wouldn't, there could be several practical ways to do this. I still like the ideas I suggested with the sensors though, could solve several problems with those. A good anti-tamper system using the interlock might be especially good. That might really save someone's arse sometime.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    I don't think this is too complicated. Now I've read this thread, I'll be adding something extra about setting lasers up on stage floors to my risk assessment.

    Andy is correct in regard to it often being difficult in inform every single person who might come on to your danger zone, that's where signage helps. There is always one person who thinks they know better but as long as you have at least followed the guidance (HSG 95) you can rest assured you probably won't get sued, while they earn themselves a Darwin award.

    When it comes to securing lasers, it is not difficult. There are always piles of wood around stages, saws and screws. It takes minutes to knock up a rudimentary frame and some blocks to be screwed to the floor which can accept a ratchet strap ensuring zero XY and Z movement! It takes a few more minute to make it look sexy from the audience's perspective and it costs nothing.

    In hindsight it's easy to say - but that's precisely why I'm taking things slowly. A little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing with lasers.

    Keith

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    244

    Default

    This thread has got somewhat derailed with the heated commentary, so I have posted this in with my earlier posting. Particularly as there were comments about if the emergency stop should have been used or not.

    Looking at the footage again, those beams look shocking hitting the audience.







    No ifs no buts, if something deviates from the planned laser show operation, and people could or are getting exposed, then USE THE EMERGENCY STOP button.

    There are NO EXCUSES, whoever the laser provider was, for allowing a laser projector to continue assaulting an audience at almost point-blank range for nearly 4 minutes.

    On all the installations we regularly check, it is an absolute requirement that there is an easily accessible emergency stop button, so that in the event of something unplanned taking place, the output can be killed straight away. The emergency stop is not there to look pretty on a sign-off, it is there to be used when there is a risk of people being harmed. END OF

    No excuses about widening the beam, or reducing power. Or being worried about the look of the show. The laser goes off.

    So in that respect, the title of this thread is very appropriate.
    Laser Safety
    https://www.lvroptical.com
    https://www.facebook.com/LaserSafety

    - Laser Show Safety Training & Audience Scanning Workshops.
    - Effects Assessment, and Realtime MPE Measurement
    - Pangolin PASS System Integrator

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galvonaut View Post
    There is always one person who thinks they know better but as long as you have at least followed the guidance (HSG 95) you can rest assured you probably won't get sued, while they earn themselves a Darwin award.
    Exactly Keith and that was really point. I was wasn't saying I had the solution, just that I had thought up a possible suggestion from an amateur perspective. I knew there would probably be a better industry standard solution out there, it was just a pity Andy hadn't shared it in his post initially as there are a lot of non professionals or professionals just starting out that visit here and its only through sharing that you get learning.

    Equally though, I just wasn't comfortable with the implication that merely having an object on the front of the stage would be a tripping hazard implying liability was a foregone conclusion as provided the presence of an object be it a laser, speaker or other item on the front of stage is reasonable (H&S 6 pack Regs for Work Areas Regulation 12 (3) "So far as is reasonably practicable, every floor in a workplace and the surface of every traffic route in a workplace shall be kept free from obstructions" - note reasonably practical (that may be influenced by the resources you have available)), and provided if there is a danger you have given sufficient warning through demarcation, notices and / or a safety briefing, then there should be no issue of liability with a performer, especially if they are under the influence of drink or drugs which impair their ability to keep themselves safe.

    Cross posted with you James but in any case yes it has got derailed slightly and I apologise for my part in that.
    Last edited by White-Light; 10-25-2013 at 02:14.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    I agree JStewart. No excuses.
    You have got some excellent material for your course there, I'm just sorry that so many people have to suffer from it - the audience and those involved in putting the show on.

    I tried pulling the thread away from the slanging match that it was, not to derail it from the fact that the OP SHOULD HAVE HIT THE STOP BUTTON but because the only positive thing that can possibly come out of this, like White-light said, is if people discuss this like adults and learn something from it.

    White-light, yes, there is plenty of guidance regarding trip hazards out there. Anyway, how does someone miss a laser which has already got a bright yellow and black "DANGER LASER RADIATION AVOID EXPOSURE" sign on it?

    I've got my chainsaw ticket and the guidance is not about making the activity risk zero. People still cut their arms and torso but it's almost impossible to cut your legs or head (the most common injuries) if you follow the guidance - it's about reducing risk to a reasonable extent.
    In the case of this laser - given the guidance and implications of exposure, this was probably not done.
    Last edited by Galvonaut; 10-25-2013 at 02:32. Reason: missing word

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •