LOBO gun, has Brad ordered one :)

[White-Light]

I am truly disappointed that these things have happened, as I would love to see the lightshow sector flourish and not attract further restrictions from regulators. The timing of these incidents is not good, as we are in the process of reviewing UK laser show safety guidance.

James

James, reducing exposure levels will only make more companies run illegal levels. Those advising the Government / making the regulations really are their own worst enemies here.

The reason most clubs that run illegal levels do so, is because the existing MPE standard is too dim to be acceptable to most audiences when viewed off the direct axis of the beam. Most audiences for certain type of music demand audience scanning and won't attend events or will alternatively attend illegal events if audience scanning is not available or bright enough. Although safety lens help with brightness, market penetration is not enough to remedy the situation alone and even then, some clubs want bright beams.

ILDA has the long proposed 10MPE standard which is backed by 20+ years of anecdotal research. It would be far better to implement a scientific study using people not otherwise exposed to laser light (not rats) and report the findings with a view to implementing a 10MPE standard with no reduction for aversion response provided "ordinary cues" are used, than to reduce exposure levels further or keep them at the existing levels.

It's far better for clubs to run a standard backed by 20 years of research and be able to legally deliver what the audiences and promoters want, than to force them to run illegal levels of unknown power or effect. Give clubs a legal level that delivers what audiences seek and most will comply. Continue to make lasers weaker, and more and more will turn their back on measured outputs or safe levels in favour of what looks right.

You only have to look at what happens in the US to see what happens when audience scanning is banned or effectively banned, you get lots of backstreet clubs doing it anyway at unregulated levels.

A higher regulated level that delivers the wow is far better than unregulated mayhem.

PS Sorry for the thread diversion, but I thought it was worth replying to Jame's point.

Regarding the LOBO incident, it sounds as if ILDA really need to have a stern reminder sent out to their members about safety as it doesn't reflect well at all with themselves effectively being the regulatory body. Perhaps at these evenings someone should oversee safety implementation and check set ups before the event goes live to prevent incidents like this occurring.

[masterpj]

this is awfull and horrifying but mostly dissapointing. I mean it already is a threat that traveling dj's with lasers and small companies do not follow any regulations most of the time and really could be a hazard with more powerfull equipment becoming cheaper, however when companies at ILDA (major companies most certainly) disregard safety requirements with serious stuff like that... that's just scary.
So nobody is going to make a report of it to ILDA to look into???????? Personally I'd say its a requirement to do an industry a favour, making these "it'll be alright" exceptions is not ok.

[norty303]

The reason most clubs that run illegal levels do so, is because the existing MPE standard is too dim to be acceptable to most audiences when viewed off the direct axis of the beam.

Al, I couldn't disagree more with your post, but I think this part especially is misinformed about how things go in the real world.

Most venues do not even know what their exposure level is, so it isn't a conscious decision to use higher powers.

They simply use whatever is installed, at whatever power that may be. Raising levels to 10xMPE will bring more of those operators within MPE levels, but only by luck rather than by judgement.

Given that actual module power increase to get from MPE to 10xMPE is relatively small, I suspect it will make absolutely zero impact for those places running 11+ times MPE.

What we NEED is for greater education and awareness about safety, levels, measurement techniques in the industry and some actual enforcement/checks made.

A very good start would be to send a person from every single licensing office/H&S office on a laser safety course (ker-ching James ) and equip them with some basic measuring equipment. The problem is that I suspect the councils departments are too disjointed/beaurocratic for it to work (the people who issue the licenses and check technical compliance aren't H&S people)

[masterpj]

What we NEED is for greater education and awareness about safety, levels, measurement techniques in the industry and some actual enforcement/checks made.

Yep I agree. It would be nice to have the MPE calculations and safety precautions all documented in one clear informative video.
Sure it wont be near as good as a true safety course nor a warrant for safety but it should pull a lot more people at least to take a look into it rather then hunt down the net hoping to find a huge document regarding safety calculations, precautions and examples all in text.

I know this is stretching it a bit but nobody off course would go through all that effort for free.
Can't ilda not set aside a bit of the organisation budget to commission someone to make a video covering this? A clear video that the average Joe would be able to at least grasp a bit.

Regarding checks one thing that is good in Germany (as I'm doing a show there in a few months) is that you are required to have a third party LSO check your show/setup (which I have btw).
Enforcing a checkup cost a party money (It would be preferably the ones doing the show) but a lot seem to not be willing to pay up for it and will just do it secretly sadly
If an organisation would be in charge for the checks it would cost money and also that has to come from somewhere, no governement is really going to fund it.

[planters]

Norty,

Re the car. You are correct. And thanks. I could have wasted a lot of money!

Re your post. Although I understand White-light's point I agree with your position. As a complete hobbyist/amateur I had previously assumed that ILDA was a responsible and trustworthy organization. I thought that the standards they set were based on extensive research and that participating members subscribed to their guidelines not for convenience or professional gravitas, but because they also agreed with maintaining high standards to protect the public and as a consequence their freedom to operate. Now JStewart references additional transgressions and that about does it for me.

You know how the public questions the attitude of the Muslim community when there is virtually no outrage expressed when Al-Qaeda commits an act of terrorism?

Who else was present during the event that should be taking actions to fix this or are they also avoiding publicity and hoping everyone forgets?

When there is no trust then any claims made be ILDA or LOBO can't be relied on. When CountFunkula references the alleged safety features wired into the projector, my first thought is "I wonder if they work" and my second thought is "I wonder if they even exist"?

Peter,

I just saw your post and I agree with you. I have done more than a dozen videos about useful topics and I do this gratis. It takes time, but for someone knowledgeable in the area of safety it would not be too difficult to condense the most important topics such as projector design, set up and mounting, MPE testing and documentation and miscellaneous... "what to watch out for". This is not a substitute for any formal training, but a hell of a lot better than nothing.

[masterpj]

Norty,
Who else was present during the event that should be taking actions to fix this or are they also avoiding publicity and hoping everyone forgets?

When there is no trust then any claims made be ILDA or LOBO can't be relied on. When CountFunkula references the alleged safety features wired into the projector, my first thought is "I wonder if they work" and my second thought is "I wonder if they even exist"?

ILDA member myself here. There aren't checks when applying but I did recall your membership able to be revoked when you participate in hazardous laser behaviour (illigal shows and such). Off course the checks are scarce I'm afraid.

Something tells me this situation was kept silent because LOBO is a big sponsor for ILDA and they wouldn't want to revoke a membership like that now would they?
Yes they keep silent until something else happens in the industry and people shift their focus.

I can't speak up for the situation as I wasn't there but I highly recommend for a small party of attendees who witnessed it to get together and report all together at once for effectiveness.

[White-Light]

Al, I couldn't disagree more with your post, but I think this part especially is misinformed about how things go in the real world.

Most venues do not even know what their exposure level is, so it isn't a conscious decision to use higher powers.

They simply use whatever is installed, at whatever power that may be. Raising levels to 10xMPE will bring more of those operators within MPE levels, but only by luck rather than by judgement.

Given that actual module power increase to get from MPE to 10xMPE is relatively small, I suspect it will make absolutely zero impact for those places running 11+ times MPE.

What we NEED is for greater education and awareness about safety, levels, measurement techniques in the industry and some actual enforcement/checks made.

A very good start would be to send a person from every single licensing office/H&S office on a laser safety course (ker-ching James ) and equip them with some basic measuring equipment. The problem is that I suspect the councils departments are too disjointed/beaurocratic for it to work (the people who issue the licenses and check technical compliance aren't H&S people)

Norty, I don't disagree with what you're saying although I don't totally agree with your 1st sentence. I think there is a mix. I should have said "some" not "most" in my original quoted paragraph.

There are some big clubs who definitely should know what the correct levels are and who in the past *may* have allegedly run levels higher than MPE. There are also many others who as you rightly point out who don't have a clue about MPE.

I think you're right about education. I also think that giving satisfying levels within a tested and safe standard is a must if you are to get people to adhere to those levels.

As for sending people from every single safety office on a course etc, I agree but only if the levels are increased to 10MPE. If you start getting heavy on the existing or a lower standard, you'll make the issue worse. Without going into details, we both know that anyone wanting to avoid checks can do so quite easily by setting up 2 different BAMs and switching between them during testing and the show when inspectors have left the arena.

The real answer here as I see it is safety education combined with a safety standard that gives people NO REASON to run illegal levels. If such a level were pie in the sky, then you could understand the current H&S position. But there is 20+ years worth of evidence pointing to the fact that higher than current levels are safe, in fact Greg Markov wrote an entire 21 page paper on the subject titled "Audience Scanning Overview" (if anyone want's to find it), not so long ago.

Yep I agree. It would be nice to have the MPE calculations and safety precautions all documented in one clear informative video.

+1

[norty303]

Although PJs quote makes it look like it, I also wasn't there, but the <snip> of Planters post makes it look like he is asking me about it. I don't believe he was

And thanks. I could have wasted a lot of money!

Imagine the shame of walking into the Aston showroom and saying "I'll take a brace of your finest Veyrons, my good man!"

As for sending people from every single safety office on a course etc, I agree but only if the levels are increased to 10MPE.

Al, you seem to be fixated on this 10xMPE. I'll repeat what i wrote in the other thread for clarity here.
If you have a reliable and fast scan fail, using a diverging lens, you can achieve perfectly acceptable levels of brightness within MPE.

[White-Light]

Al, you seem to be fixated on this 10xMPE. I'll repeat what i wrote in the other thread for clarity here.
If you have a reliable and fast scan fail, using a diverging lens, you can achieve perfectly acceptable levels of brightness within MPE.

Again I don't disagree Norty except to say, some desire brighter levels that are available by lensing, and the market penetration of lenses is very small. A 10 MPE standard would open up brighter levels for those without lenses and provide a brighter but safe level still for those with lenses. For those used to many many times MPE, a lensed laser at MPE will not be bright enough especially if aversion response is taken into account.

[planters]

Norty,

You are correct. I was not asking you, but I am asking for an actual "list of shame". Who is benefiting from an association with the industry's leaders and allowing this to pass? What about calling for a universal withholding of dues unless the officers who are failing to sanction LOBO are recalled? What about demanding LOBO publish both an apology along with a plan to hold on the sale of these systems until a third party evaluates their safety? How about placing LOBO on probation until they do these things. What about investigating LOBO's operations and current performance locations? They did leave this powerful prototype unattended ,right? I assume they're not stupid and so I believe they are dangerously careless.

Even if ILDA has real merit and does do a lot of good this is a credibility disaster and needs to be corrected right away.