LOBO gun, has Brad ordered one :)

[norty303]

A 10 MPE standard would open up brighter levels for those without lenses and provide a brighter but safe level still for those with lenses.

Although I haven't tested it back to back, based on what I've seen and measured, a lens and scanfail at MPE is brighter that no lens at 10xMPE.

[masterpj]

Increasing MPE wont help much at the moment.
A lot of people don't even do MPE at all (lazyness, not knowing how,etc)

I think the informing part should come first (an easy or straight forward video telling how its done).
From the measuring of mrad with simple (non exotic) equipment to the actual calculating.

After that considerations should be taken to raise the MPE a bit to make it a bit easier.

Laser Companies should offer a service point where people can get their equipment measured for output power out of the apperture at an affordable price as also a lot of people dont have an power meter.
It wont be that taxing on people as it's a one time process, after that the power of their equipment can only degrade unless readjusted.

[Stiffler]

Here's a novel idea: Rather than just impose new regulations that most people won't follow (assuming that they even know about them and understand them), why not offer some help to the community, in the form of technical assistance including MPE measurement of the installed equipment? If I want to build a house I have to ensure that certain standards are met, and even before I'm finished it will be inspected to make sure that it meets the local building codes. If building regulations worked the same as laser regulations, no one would bother inspecting a structure until after it collapsed on a group of people, and this seems a little silly. Obviously this idea would be a little impractical for the travelling laser operator (a road test, perhaps?), but reaching out to club owners and offering help could go a long way towards keeping the audience safe, and the clubs on the up-and-up.

[planters]

Stiffler,

I agree. And I think Peter had a good idea with simple and practical online tutorials. Volunteering to preform this service for clubs without expectation of remuneration would do a lot to elevate the reputation of the service. The International Dark Sky Association was formed by astronomy enthusiasts a couple of decades ago. They used the broadly appealing aspect of energy conservation to combat wasteful and ugly sky glow. They have grown quite large and are well respected. Liability and potential federal interference with these shows might be the way to appeal to laser companies and venues.

I'm still concerned about the ILDA and LOBO. I wonder if any of the witnesses of these events have contacted Coherent to inform them about how their products are being used. They are a large corporation with a lot of exposure and I suspect they would be interested. I suspect Spectra Physics would also be interested in how Coherent's customers are using these powerful lasers.

[Stiffler]

A quick Google search reveals that Lobo hosted the ILDA event, which might explain why no one from ILDA is talking about it. SHAMEFUL!

[Galvonaut]

Personally I don't think this should be a grassing match - but that is precisely what one risks by not being open with things like this.

I am sure that both ILDA and LOBO could have used this alleged error/incident to their benefit - by simply saying 'we made a mistake' and 'it can happen to anyone' and 'this what you need to do to avoid it happening to you'. I don't think it is ever too late to do this - after all, we all make mistakes occasionally and I for one think more of anyone who can hold their hand up and say 'oops, sorry'!

For me, I would avoid a moving head laser altogether. I think it's crazy - It reminds me of the Super Aegis 2 <shudder>

Hopefully ILDA will step in here soon (I'm sure they are aware of this thread by now) as I'm considering membership and would rather not join an industry association who does not follow their own code of ethics.

The issue of a conflict of interest shouldn't come into it. ILDA are either the industry association - or they are not. If they are not, then the industry should set up one that works, is ethical and honest and can be trusted not just by the industry that holds it's code of ethics in high regard but by the public (me at the moment) who are considering whether to listen to their advice and guidance.

Keith

[Bradfo69]

I've mentioned it before and perhaps it has annoyed some but, the organization has a reputation... and is perceived by... an awful lot of people as a "good old boy" network. Much like politicians, attorneys and law enforcement officials that cover up for their own, it will be interesting to see if and when there is a response now that some of these incidents are coming to light. The pointers used on the restaurant carpet actually bothers me more than the laser gun thing. Not that it doesn't happen at hobbiest LEM's when we've gone out to eat too but... ILDA claims to and should be, held to a higher standard, particularly when it's an international thing. Wanna burn holes in shit when you're together with your buddies in an international situation? Do it in the hotel room or something.

[White-Light]

Although I haven't tested it back to back, based on what I've seen and measured, a lens and scanfail at MPE is brighter that no lens at 10xMPE.

That would be an impossibility. You know as well as I do Norty that the thinner the beam, the brighter it appears. So expanding an already weak beam cannot make it as bright as a beam at 10x the power, it can only make it weaker as you're spreading the power over a greater area. Also, what about a beam at 10MPE + safety lens?

I'm not sure why you are against it, but I don't think ever weaker and weaker legal laser displays are the way to stop people from exceeding the limits. It's like speed limits, make them 30 mph and most people obey them. Reduce it to 3 mph (1/10th) and most will exceed it.

If we were talking about an unproven level of brightness here I could accept the caution but there's 20+ years of research that has failed to show a single injury for levels many many times greater than 10MPE. Yep there isn't a definitive medical study to confirm this, but surely this evidence is evidence of exactly why there should be one. I could write things here about my own exposure which is backed up by definitive medical evidence, however, I don't want to encourage people to take risks. 10 MPE has long term data. Other levels, may be safer than thought but have no scientific basis and so shouldn't be chanced.

@PJ, I believe you are entirely right about disseminating information especially by training video. However, to get people on board the levels have to be both safe and impressive. Not many people who aren't obeying MPE are going to jump on board if it makes the lasers look unacceptably weak in comparison to what they have been running.

[norty303]

That would be an impossibility. You know as well as I do Norty that the thinner the beam, the brighter it appears. So expanding an already weak beam cannot make it as bright as a beam at 10x the power, it can only make it weaker as you're spreading the power over a greater area.

It is not such a simple calculation and relationship as you are making out Al.

When using a lens, you can use much higher powers whilst still being within MPE.

When viewing beams, you do not look at the beam hitting your face, you view the beam as you observe the whole stage/show, so anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3rd of the total distance from the source is your focal point. Where the beams are still quite tight.... and bright looking... brighter than the neutered undiverged beams.

I will not try to convince you Al, but perhaps it would be an interesting experiement to set up at the UKLEM.

I'm not sure why you are against it, but I don't think ever weaker and weaker legal laser displays are the way to stop people from exceeding the limits. It's like speed limits, make them 30 mph and most people obey them. Reduce it to 3 mph (1/10th) and most will exceed it.

I'm not against it (other than I can't see it ever happening), I just cannot see it actually making any difference, given that people don't know what 'speed' they doing currently, and likely will not know what 'speed' they're doing after any increase. All it will do is mean that people who are already partially aware of the limits, but exceed them anyway, will suddenly think they can crank their powers further, to even more extreme levels. Some people are already dangerous because they have it fundamentally wrong. This will just make them more dangerous.

[planters]

Brad,

I know exactly what you mean. Just like when the UN is called in to fix something. Things are likely to get worse. You get the impression that some adults needed to be present. If I don't see something pretty soon to either contradict the reports of what happened or that reasonable action is being taken to identify the cause of these problems and prevent them from reoccurring then I think the organization should be shunned. Resign, ignore them, refuse to attend any activity in which they have a part and if they were intended to fill some legitimate purpose then replace them.