LOBO gun, has Brad ordered one :)

[White-Light]

When using a lens, you can use much higher powers whilst still being within MPE.

No you're right on that Norty, I was forgetting the increased power factor that's available, it's been a long day..

That said, with 10x the power to play with and a lens....

I'm not against it (other than I can't see it ever happening), I just cannot see it actually making any difference, given that people don't know what 'speed' they doing currently, and likely will not know what 'speed' they're doing after any increase. All it will do is mean that people who are already partially aware of the limits, but exceed them anyway, will suddenly think they can crank their powers further, to even more extreme levels. Some people are already dangerous because they have it fundamentally wrong. This will just make them more dangerous.

I see it differently as those that are exceeding the limits deliberately might be prepared to comply if the limit gave them what they wanted. Those that exceed the limits through ignorance are more likely to be convinced to comply by eduction if the education shows them legal beams are bright.

I do agree there is a small danger in publicising that the limit has increased by a factor of 10 in some people increasing existing powers based on this, but this is equally why I've always said that ILDA were wrong to pitch this as a discretionary limit that was 10 MPE. To me the way forward has always been to declare this the new standard ie the New MPE that replaces the old MPE standard. This puts far more pressure on governments to change. Also don't publicise the fact that it's 10 x greater, keep that hidden in the detail, just quietly announce a that ILDA have changed the MPE standard.

[planters]

There is something disturbing about the relative silence regarding the events surrounding the LOBO sponsored ILDA event. When a YouTube video is posted displaying an obviously hazardous laser display there is outrage and a flurry of demands and recommendations from dozens of people. There are often follow up videos uploaded that more often than not reinforce the need to intervene or notify a relevant authority.

Now, I am basing my concern on claims by a couple of PL participants. I am not aware of any video proof or reports by other witnesses. If nothing else exists it is hard to maintain a strong position on this, but if it does then I am appalled that so few others are joining me in calling out the people and organizations involved.

Can anyone set me straight here or stand up and join me?

[The_Doctor]

I think the silence is because this is a genuinely serious event, it goes beyond a careless DJ or a tipped-over projector at a music award ceremony, this is an outdoor display device with power and ability easily equivalent to a lethal weapon. 100W or even 10W with that small a beam diameter could burn deep enough to sever an artery in a neck, or cause a shock reaction that can result in death, in a person who might be too incapacitated to avoid it if the beam stopped moving while it pointed at them. While this didn't happen, the seriousness of this ranks with that Laserscope-to-the-head business, and is maybe worse because of the relatively close proximity to spectators who were not operating the laser.

First there will be a 'there but for the grace of god' kind of hush as people take stock and realise how lucky they are it wasn't far worse in any number of ways. Then there will be a long considered silence while people think what to do, damage limitation, etc. Whether this will result in a collective arse-covering, or a useful shakeup that prompts the industry to get cheap metering for MPE into the hands of far more people, better safeguards, perhaps commissioning enough scanfails to be built to get the individual price down, I don't know. I imagine that if someone went to Pangolin to pay for half a million scanfails, Bill would get them built and as with the 506 scanners, manage it at a lower unit cost too. An event like this might make a very rich firm want to do it if the alternaitive is a market ruthlessly restricted by legislation.

There's been a lot of talk about what can or should happen to make better and safer use of MPE limits, and this event might make some of it happen because a gesture of that kind by the larger and richer ILDA membership might be their best shot at damage limitation in the long run.

I have always been cautious about ILDA, preferring to watch those who directly work on MPE limits and post openly here when it comes to safety guidance. James Stewart, for example. To me it's like choosing between a engineer and a politician, and it's not a difficult choice. I won't join any specific association because to me there seems to be no reason. Science tends to happen based on discovery and truth, not so much all the Royal Societies that come out of it.

The science of this will drive itself, given any opportunity, but the politics, like all politics, will be driven by events. And this is an Event with a capital E, so I think there will be change.

[White-Light]

I have always been cautious about ILDA, preferring to watch those who directly work on MPE limits and post openly here when it comes to safety guidance. James Stewart, for example. To me it's like choosing between a engineer and a politician, and it's not a difficult choice. I won't join any specific association because to me there seems to be no reason. Science tends to happen based on discovery and truth, not so much all the Royal Societies that come out of it.

Doc whilst there is absolutely no doubt that James is an absolute expert on all aspects of calculating and managing MPE, it has to be said that Greg's report pulls on 20+ years worth of medical / optical evidence. That's not an excuse to ignore the current MPE level, but it is the basis for either allowing a trial of the higher level or a medical study using light show conditions ie. varied lighting rather than continuous exposure, competing lighting, periods of non coherent fixtures only etc. The best way I think would be to run small free trial events at the higher level with the levels verified by someone like James and with the audience being warned in advance and required to sign disclaimers plus agreeing to medical inspection 48 hours after the event, and as a condition of being granted a ticket . Maybe further free tickets could be promised for further events in return for attending the opticians or maybe a cash incentive. That way you could have the event run normally thus replicating normal lighting mixtures, and hopefully get representative results. If the first is successful, several events could be run to back up the initial findings.

[The_Doctor]

Not a problem.. I wasn't siding with part of that debate, I just picked an example of someone who posts here openly about safety and methods. Like planters and me in that TEC cooling thread, we can come at the same thing from different angles and so long as we look carefully at the same thing we converge on something useful, likely more useful than we came in with. That's science. Or at least something in the same spirit. It's politics that bothers me. If ILDA gets lost in politics instead of recognising a big reality check, then other arrangements will establish themselves.

I did read the posts from you and Norty in this thread (and the one about the Brazillian show video found on the ILDA site), and I think there are good points from both of you. People will act according to changes in MPE specs in various ways, and you've both cited recognisable traits of human nature that can result in this context. So it doesn't matter if you disagree so long as you keep coming up with good ideas.

EDIT:
For the record, I think if increased MPE can be backed by medical observation, then if more people comply because it's easier to do so without conflict with desire to put on a strong show, it is likely worth it even if there are dangerous idiots who will push the envelope ever further just because the limit is raised. Most laws are designed to give expression to the common will of people who want to know where a line is drawn, they are never designed to stop the few dangerous idiots because the dangerous idiots never stop being dangerous idiots just because the law says so anyway, they need other means of restraint, and people in general need better protections from them than law can give too. That said, now isn't a good time to push for raising MPE, the focus is better placed on getting people to know what the hell it means in the first place, and to get cheap meters for it into their hands so they feel like they have a stake in handling this right for themselves. We could go with the old argument that no-one's going to automagically pour cheap MPE meters from the sky, but right now, there are big firms who stand to lose more than the cost of doing exactly that if they do not do it. A big gesture in favour of safety is the one big move the ILDA's strongest membership needs to make right now. It's not as if they'll lose money, it's just a big thing that no-one wanted to do, but a few high profile accidents that hit the press and govt advisers face to face like this latest one seems to be destined to do, that might make the difference. Plenty of time to settle the actual value of MPE once people at large have easy means to measure it.

[norty303]

I like your 'pause for breath/taking stock' theory Doc.
When did the ILDA Conference take place again?

[The_Doctor]

I thought you'd said my stock theory was breathtaking. Amazing what weird sleep patterns do to me..
Not sure about date, I got the feeling it was a week ago but the first time I saw thsi thread I was intent on an excuse for my Goldfinger funny and missed the real import altogether, so I might have missed plenty else too.

[Simon]

Not having a pop at anyone but....

Has anyone actually pointed ILDA to this thread or is everyone hoping that luck and chinese whispers will make them see it.. ?

[Galvonaut]

Not having a pop at anyone but....

Has anyone actually pointed ILDA to this thread or is everyone hoping that luck and chinese whispers will make them see it.. ?

I don't know anyone in a formal position in ILDA (AFAIK) only those who have membership. Good idea though

[astatic]

I'll contact Patrick Murphey about this subject to tell him that there are some concerns and questions about laser safety at the lobo meeting.
It's up to him to decide if and who will respond.
Let's wait for his respond.