Lasers and the FBI

[norty303]

You're getting off the point though Stuka. Claims are being made that the direct effects of the laser are causing temporary blindness, lasting weeks.
Not some involuntary reaction with hands or whatever causing damage (imagine the trouble Captain Hook would be in, no wonder he wears an eye patch)

I'm not disputing the fact that its dangerous and a distraction but to suggest that people are shooting peoples eyes out at long ranges with handhelds of questionable beam quality is just not within the area of physics we are dealing with is it?

[Stuka]

You're getting off the point though Stuka. Claims are being made that the direct effects of the laser are causing temporary blindness, lasting weeks.
Not some involuntary reaction with hands or whatever causing damage (imagine the trouble Captain Hook would be in, no wonder he wears an eye patch)

I'm not disputing the fact that its dangerous and a distraction but to suggest that people are shooting peoples eyes out at long ranges with handhelds of questionable beam quality is just not within the area of physics we are dealing with is it?

My point in agreeing with Steve is that the response to the laser can be a VERY dangerous result of the lasing, and in fact could cause more long-term harm than the laser itself.
Also, there have been documented cases over the last couple of years in which lasing has been the direct cause of damage to some pilots' eyesight.

Military and commercial pilots are subject to much tighter vision scrutiny & restrictions than most, so what might be considered a minor irritant or hardly noticeable side-effect by every-day folks might be a career-ender for a professional aviator.

While the article could undoubtedly have been written a bit better, the FBI clip is dead-on.
Also, I don't see any mention of shooting someone's eyes out with any specific type of laser ~
pretty much everything I read and watched is a reference to the temporary and sometimes long-lasting effects of what we often refer to as "flash-blindness" as a result of the lasing.

I'm guessing most folks here have never been in a situation where they are in command of a busy, dimly-lit aircraft cockpit, with eyesight fully night-adapted, and suddenly hit by blinding flash of laser or other intense light.
When that happens, a person's night vision is basically fucked, to put it bluntly, and even a few seconds of that can present an incredibly dangerous situation to the crew & passengers, especially during landings and other low-altitude flight maneuvers. A person's vision is EXTREMELY sensitive to light when fully night-adapted, so the intensity required to "flash-blind" someone would be considerably less than that required to physically & permanently damage the eyes; but, during whatever time it takes for the pilots eyesight to recover the immediate implications and dangers are the same.

Unfortunately, helicopter crews (kindred brethren) are especially susceptible to be the targets of morons with high-powered handhelds, due to the generally lower flight altitudes and lower airspeeds.
I personally hope that every dumbass who decides to lase a flying aircraft - helicopter or fixed wing - gets prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Randy

[dsli_jon]

..Military and commercial pilots are subject to much tighter vision scrutiny & restrictions than most, so what might be considered a minor irritant or hardly noticeable side-effect by every-day folks might be a career-ender for a professional aviator.

I'm guessing most folks here have never been in a situation where they are in command of a busy, dimly-lit aircraft cockpit, with eyesight fully night-adapted, and suddenly hit by blinding flash of laser or other intense light. ...especially during landings and other low-altitude flight maneuvers.

I personally hope that every dumbass who decides to lase a flying aircraft - helicopter or fixed wing - gets prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

@ Norty (and, et al..) ..Yep, this.. ^ Yes, article-writers DO-need to be educated, so they are presenting *accurate* information.. Bad-information / 'sensationalizing' does no-one, any good, but.. If it resulted in Class IIIb and IV pointer sales / imports getting banned, I would not shed one single tear.. Honestly, when it comes to ALL Class IV pointers, being SO freely-available - (..not 'buildable', mind-you - freely-available, to anyone who has the quid to just buy them cold, via eBay, Amazon, etc, etc.. At least if someone has enough brains to build their own from components, they more than likely have enough mental extrapolation powers to not-go targeting aircraft..)

..But, WTFloody-good do those caliber of pointers do, just simply uncontrollably flooding the open-range marketplace?? Do *that* many people really-need to be cutting electrical tape, lighting matches and popping balloons?? ..and, 'Age-verification'? Pfff.. Fail.. Bah... I'm an ant yelling at a freefall-speeding freight-train..

..but, Point-is, while, yes - it's not likely that a Beam, getting into an aircraft - at least a plane - moving at 130 mph, min, with thick-glass, nearly brewster-angle (..especially adding-in the 'angle of attack', from the ground..) windows, then, a couple feet into a cockpit, making 'shakey-hand sweeps' across even a 15mm pupil, is going to 'burn a spot in a retina'.. But I would not agree that it's TOTALLY "impossible".. Some eye surgeries are done with nano-second pulses of 250mW... or even less..

..Nonetheless, as Randy testifies, the FAR-GREATER danger is 'distraction' during those flight-critical segments.. YouTube search one of the NatGeo air-crash series episodes for "Colgan Air Flight 3407" - No, it was not 'downed by a pointer-idiot', but.. it's a classic-example of the potential results of distractions during 'critical' flight segments like final-approach..

..Ultimately, thier distracted 'chit chatting' / over-tiredness led them to overlook a critical setting on the plane for flying in icy-conditions, that led to them being 'thrown' in judgement / timing.. Yes, they botched the correct-reaction, but.. It could just have easily've been a flash-blindness incident, that 'threw' them off / been the catalyst for the disaster in those critical moments... And, if / WHEN some pointertard nails a similarly-fatigued crew... and there's a crash?.. What do you think the 'headlines' will read?? LASER DOWNS PLANE.. and then, ya.. it's gonna be 'Regulationgeddon' over here.. and probably elsewhere.. :/

I've never piloted a plane - I have been allowed to 'shadow' / co-pilot once, after we were way-up / safe, etc, and ya, a pilot really-has got a *lot* to be focused on, but.. I have been nailed thru a side window as a passenger, and even though I'd estimate the pointer (it was green..) was not more than 1/2 Watt, I could not *believe* how it 'felt'... Like a shove in the face, and my vision was 'whitewashed' for a good 30-secs, at least.. And, 30 secs of 'can't see ****', for a Pilot? ..On approach?? Yeah, I would not wanna be on that flight..

..As-to 'I was blind for a week' / reports of actual eye-damage, well.. All I can say is I think Randy is spot-on when he testifies that Pilots are gonna be subject to greater scrutiny / more-stringent 'margins' for what is a 'Pass' eye-exam, (vs 'you're on the bench for a week'..) then the general-populous.. I'm sure after an incident, if that Pilot so much as get's 1% wrong (more than his last-exam results..) or, the eye-scan shows any evidence of 'stress' / redness, etc.. They are 'on the bench', period.. That Doc is gonna 'CYA' like nobody's biz, if nothing else.. Whether any Pilots have 'milked' a situ, or not, well.. Dunno, but I'd kind of doubt it.. Typically Pilots are not typically known for being 'frivolous cads'..

..Still, yes - Two-thumbs down for inaccurate / sensationalized reporting / writing, no doubt.. Last thing we all need is BAD education.. :/
Ok, I'll shut up now.

j

[kecked]

if someone really wanted to cause damage would they not want to use IR. heat the windscreen, and crack it. Not sure if you can focus IR that far but it would be nasty and you can get kw of power fairly cheap. BUT that would mean you know something and these idiots are obviously just stupid. Heck for that matter pop a tire.

[Laserman532]

geeeeeeee...where have I heard all this before.....OH YEAH...only every year since 1977 haha

[dsli_jon]

..haha

..Well, You *can* laugh, since your 'pointers' don't roll off the table!

Wish I could'a made NWLEM / finally met-ya / got that NatGeo Siggy... .. someday, Cap'n..
j

[buffo]

if someone really wanted to cause damage would they not want to use IR. heat the windscreen, and crack it. Not sure if you can focus IR that far but it would be nasty and you can get kw of power fairly cheap. BUT that would mean you know something and these idiots are obviously just stupid. Heck for that matter pop a tire.

I think 1064 nm (near IR) would shoot right through the windscreen. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that glass is transparent to 1064.) Thus, all you'd need is a converted laserscope with the KTP removed, and you'd have a source of q-switched 1064 nm IR that could create pulses in the order of many 10's of kilowatts of peak power. For your targeting and collimation, you could use a simple reflector telescope.

Bottom line: For less than $5000 you could build a device that would fit inside a van and be truly capable of permanently blinding an airline pilot on final approach. And since the retina has no pain receptors and does not respond to IR at all, the pilot would have no blink or aversion response. He'd just see his vision go black - forever. Now that's scary.

This is the real laser threat to airliner safety. But instead, we focus on idiots with laser pointers.

OK, I get it, you can distract a pilot with a pointer, and yes, at the wrong moment that could cause problems for the flight. But it's damned sure not going to cause lasting eye injury, let alone permanent blindness.

Adam

[kecked]

I think you would need to gold plate your mirror or you might blow the coating right off a traditional telescope. But the real question is why do I feel compelled to work this out! Must be the engineer in me and the great hope in humanity that no one would EVER be so stupid as to actually try it. If you actually could put that kind of ir power in the air you could even through adaptive optics focus in the flight path so they see plasma explosions! If done with scanning you could draw a face or other graphic in the air in front of them in plasma. I'd bet you'd need gigawatt lasers to do that but you could literally make them see a ufo. Oh how I feel like a five year old.....

[buffo]

I think you would need to gold plate your mirror or you might blow the coating right off a traditional telescope.

Yeah, but even if you didn't go to the trouble of doing that, if the mirrors lasted for a few seconds, that would be enough to do the deed. Buy a new telescope the next time you plan to fire it...

Must be the engineer in me and the great hope in humanity that no one would EVER be so stupid as to actually try it.

No responsible person would, surely, as they would recognize the incredible danger. However, a psychopathic terrorist with a little knowledge of lasers and optics might well attempt it. Truthfully, I'm surprised it hasn't been tried already. These are the thoughts that keep me awake at night...

If you actually could put that kind of ir power in the air you could even through adaptive optics focus in the flight path so they see plasma explosions!

That would definitely freak people out! But yeah, if you can create plasma in free air, you've already surpassed the eye-damage threshold...

Adam

[Laserman532]

speaking of psychopathic terrorist...

http://news.yahoo.com/us-navy-ready-...JTTXYAciLQtDMD