Pangolin Show Space

[TechJunkie]

Attachment 42302
How did my question turn into a arguement lol

With debate comes clarity. Ordinary banter is a worthless form of communication.

[buffo]

I am not an existing client. I am a previous customer.

Previous customer means you are a client. I thought that was clear.

And what the hell are you talking about regarding "bad form".

Do you normally make it a policy to post the contents of private messages in public? That is what I am talking about regarding "bad form".

If someone posts something in public, that's fine. If it is in a private message, then it should stay private. (Hence the term "private message")

Seriously, I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you. Wini sent that as a PM. She could have posted it in public, but she didn't. You should respect her wishes by not posting it in public. (Or at least not without asking her first.)

If Winni is actively emailing to every individual that has ever done business with them, price lists and updated price lists for every product they sell (even if the customer has never inquired about the product) then this to my mind is advertising.

Unfortunately, you mind is not responsible for the business definition of public advertising. (Emphasis on the word public.) This is a common practice in ALL sales industries. (Have you never received an unsolicited sales offer from a company that you once did business with a long time ago?)

Targeted direct-mail submissions to persons the company has a relationship with (translation: have ever been a customer in the past, or have ever requested a price quote) are not considered public advertisements.

Just about everyone who has been in this area (hobby or pro) for some time will be likely to be aware of the pricing that Winni is charging.

Incorrect. Many people here have never done business with Goldenstar. Granted, they are picking up new customers from PL all the time, but the key word there is NEW customers.

Also, if you followed the thread that discussed the special FB3 pricing, you'll notice that the price was never posted in public. Unless you contacted Goldenstar in private (or received a message from them in private), you would never know the price.

Furthermore, not everyone got the pricing update you did, even though they were customers of Goldenstar. (An informal inquiry with a few fellow PL members recently confirmed this.) For the record, I didn't get it either, and I have bought several different items from them (including projector cases, optics, lasers, and a Flashback 3). I had to send an e-mail to Mimi to ask for a copy.

You are very quick to jump to Winni's defense

Just as you were equally quick to attack her, and Pangolin. Tunabout is fair play, is it not?

If it is simply quantity purchasing (as I have said already) then passing this savings on to the next purchaser is fine.

This is not what you said earlier. You said that if they are buying at a discount, then either they are screwing over other dealers, or else Pangolin is selling to an end user at below normal price.

You never mentioned the possibilty that Goldenstar might be a legitimate dealer taking advantage of volume pricing and passing the savings on.

If they are not then...no problem.

Thank you. That is what I was hoping to hear.

Re: Bridge... Went over what?

Went over the concept of a Minimum Advertised Price, and what that actually means for a dealer, including both the restrictions and the exceptions.

Every company I've ever become a dealer for (3 to date, only one is laser related) has included this in the initial dealer agreement. That's why I said this is business 101. It's a standard industry practice.

Maybe you didn't enter into a formal dealership arrangement with Laserwave. But if you did, I find it incredible that this wasn't one of the key topics that were discussed at the outset.

Adam

[hakzaw1]

Not wanting to stir any pots but..
I have seen QS offered very cheaply from China BUT only in a bundle deal- thus the 'other' item is bumped up in price so, in essence , you are paying more for the QS than it appears--- I have also seen USA based Projector dealers offering QS and 'claiming' the SMRP was $999- -- so their 'good' discount price was down to $650--
no deal at all IMHO.

[planters]

This is very frustrating. I am going to continue to discuss this in public for the benefit of others.

The price list she sent to me was an email. I repeat an email, not a PM here on the forum and so there was no reason to assume she had any intention to keep this information private. Furthermore, she never stated the information could not be distributed or shared in any way. On the contrary it is reasonable to assume she would want this information to be distributed as wildly as possible. I ask others to give an opinion here. If you were running a business such as Winni's and sent out a colorful multi-page document listing your product line along with the prices wouldn't you want this distributed widely?

Stop playing games with the issue of how to describe advertising. She sent me an unsolicited price list for items I never expressed any interest in six months after I purchased a laser from her. She has done this multiple times since and if she has sent it to others,but not to all others this makes no difference, it was unasked for in my case. Once again, I repeat, she expressed no interest in my keeping any of this information private. I will continue to call this advertising because it serves the same purpose and no other purpose. Do others agree with my take on this?

Dude, I am not attacking her or Pangolin. I am concerned about the effect her pricing will have on other distributors around the world. I have received a lot of useful help from Fred and Rob, Dave and Peter and I am sure others have as well. I also assume there are other distributors out there that I haven't interacted with. The purpose of an MAP is to prevent a valuable network of distributors from undercutting each other to the point that only one (the largest) can afford to remain in business. If one distributor can obtain wholesale product from a manufacturer at a discounted price because of quantity purchasing then they stand to make a larger profit, but are not supposed to undercut the MAP.

Winni is then an end user and simply taking advantage of a lower cost for quantity purchasing and passing this on to the next user.

Me

You never mentioned the possibilty that Goldenstar might be a legitimate dealer taking advantage of volume pricing and passing the savings on.

You

Read my posts before you make accusations!

This is not what you said earlier. You said that if they are buying at a discount, then either they are screwing over other dealers, or else Pangolin is selling to an end user at below normal price.

Please find where I say this. If you mean:

I got a problem with this if they are allowing a particular distributor to disadvantage other distributors. On the other hand if Pangolin is selling directly to the end user then the existence of a distributor network is a bit of a fallacy. Winni is then an end user and simply taking advantage of a lower cost for quantity purchasing and passing this on to the next user.

You introduce a new concept "normal price". If an end user is able to obtain a lower price for an item from a manufacturer or a distributor because of quantity purchasing then it is indeed reasonable that a price, one below the MAP may be offered. The MAP (as I understand it here) is set for a quantity of ONE purchase.


Laserwave does not advertise a MAP for their lasers. At least I am not aware that they did and this was not discussed. Furthermore, in dealing with them the arrangements were not made with Bridge but with others within the company who had this responsibility. This is not pertinent to the present issue, but is raised to illustrate that my interactions with this company are not as simple as you might have thought.

Please stop with the condescension ("business 101", "seriously, I can't believe that I have to explain this to you"). You suggest that I am naive or that I lack restraint. This is untrue and insulting and I'm sure others here would agree that I have shown wisdom and refrained from reveling sensitive information provided in... PRIVATE MESSAGES. We both contribute a lot to this forum and to this hobby and my interests are not for myself, but rather for the continued existence of a vigorous support network. I guess that you value this network as well. I am not trying to cast stones, but I truly think there may be a problem of some kind here.

[White-Light]

Laserwave does not advertise a MAP for their lasers.

Not taking anyone's side here just pointing out that it maybe LW do a lot more sales from reseller businesses in Europe where a MAP would be illegal, whereas I'm guessing most Pangolin sales come direct from Pangolin or from China.

(You're allowed to have a manufacturer's suggested retail price), but a manufacturer cannot in any way set a fixed price or any minimum price in Europe. That's called price fixing and in the European Union it's highly illegal with huge fines - think 10's or 100's of £millions!

Just one example - £280M ($420M approx) fine: http://www.theguardian.com/business/...ean-commission

[buffo]

it is reasonable to assume she would want this information to be distributed as wildly as possible.

Is it? Then why wouldn't she post it in public herself? BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE PUBLIC ADVERTISING.

You can't seem to grasp this difference. Perhaps it's because you've never had to operate a business that had a minimum advertised price in the dealer agreement. But after having it explained to you several times, I'm truly at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you to understand.

Stop playing games with the issue of how to describe advertising.

For the last god-damned time, I am not playing games. This is how advertising is described. If you don't approve of the terms, then stay out of the business. But stop accusing me of splitting hairs. This is the system as it operates. I didn't invent it.

She sent me an unsolicited price list for items I never expressed any interest in six months after I purchased a laser from her.

Just like many other companies have done, I'm sure. Or is your spam filter only configured to allow messages from Goldenstar while blocking all others?

You are railing against this "unsolicited advertisement" as if it's something dirty, when in fact it's common. Get over it already.

Read my posts

Winni is then an end user and simply taking advantage of a lower cost for quantity purchasing and passing this on to the next user.

Exactly! Read it yourself. You said this makes Winni an END USER who is just re-selling the items to the next guy. But Winni is a dealer, and a dealer is not an end user! There is a huge difference between someone selling something to someone else (which is not covered under first sale doctrine) and a dealer selling something to a user (which is a first sale transaction).

The MAP (as I understand it here) is set for a quantity of ONE purchase.

You are incorrect. The MAP is simply the lowest price you are allowed to advertise in public. Period. You can offer volume discounts in private if you wish, or you can offer discounts on single units in private, but you can't advertise in public to sell one unit, or multiple units for that matter, at a price below the MAP. That's how it works.

The issues with volume discounts to dealers on the wholesale level are completely unrelated to MAP.

Laserwave does not advertise a MAP for their lasers.

They wouldn't "advertise" it, it would be part of the dealer agreement. However, as Mark mentioned above, it could be that because they don't have a US presence (as Pangolin does), they don't utilize MAP. Though this would be odd indeed. (I do agree that MAP is far more difficult to implement in the EU, because of their strict trade regulations.)

You suggest that I am naive or that I lack restraint.

Yes I do. You went off against Pangolin and Goldenstar with very few facts regarding the issue, and as I pointed out previously, the 2 cases you proposed both had negative connotations for each company.

Had you at least offered the possibility that there might be an excluded middle somewhere in your argument, I would have let it slide. But you of all people should know better than to start an argument with a false dichotomy.

Adam

[loopee]

Planters, as you asked

The price list she sent to me was an email. I repeat an email, not a PM here on the forum and so there was no reason to assume she had any intention to keep this information private. Furthermore, she never stated the information could not be distributed or shared in any way. On the contrary it is reasonable to assume she would want this information to be distributed as wildly as possible. I ask others to give an opinion here. If you were running a business such as Winni's and sent out a colorful multi-page document listing your product line along with the prices wouldn't you want this distributed widely?

Stop playing games with the issue of how to describe advertising. She sent me an unsolicited price list for items I never expressed any interest in six months after I purchased a laser from her. She has done this multiple times since and if she has sent it to others,but not to all others this makes no difference, it was unasked for in my case. Once again, I repeat, she expressed no interest in my keeping any of this information private. I will continue to call this advertising because it serves the same purpose and no other purpose. Do others agree with my take on this?

This is direct marketing, not advertising, as it is directed at an individual that has had some dealing with the company in the past (at any time in the past). Most companies will maintain an email list of all these people to try and drum up new business and therefore use the direct marketing approach as a way of saying thankyou for you previous business, here is a sweetener to buy more from them as a trusted source.

Email and Private Message is exactly the same thing, it is sent to an individual for that individuals consumption and one would expect unless specified otherwise that it would not be shared, however as it is marketing they probably would not mind it being passed onto friends, close associates, etc.

Advertising on the other hand is not directed at anyone and is broadcast in any form of media (magazines, buy/sell section of forums, websites, etc)

Direct Marketing - Aimed at repeat business from previous/existing customers = reward

Advertising - Aimed at new business with new customers = no reward

[TechJunkie]

Not wanting to stir any pots but..
I have seen QS offered very cheaply from China BUT only in a bundle deal- thus the 'other' item is bumped up in price so, in essence , you are paying more for the QS than it appears--- I have also seen USA based Projector dealers offering QS and 'claiming' the SMRP was $999- -- so their 'good' discount price was down to $650--
no deal at all IMHO.

You're not even near the pot Len. If you have gotten the price sheet from Winni you'd know its not a bundle price.

Next time do a little homework brother. This way you'd know what you were talking about.

[planters]

Adam,

I made an attempt to reach out to you in my last post in order to help clarify my reason for bringing this issue up. I don't want to fight with you. I have a concern that I am trying to address. You refuse to make any attempt to recognizance the potential significance of what is being done to the distributors of this product. And, in your anger you lash out at me and insult me. Just for the record, I am not and I have never been a distributor of this product.

For the last god-damned time, I am not playing games. This is how advertising is described. If you don't approve of the terms, then stay out of the business. But stop accusing me of splitting hairs.

I am not in the business and I will not stop accusing you of splitting hairs because this is what you are doing. You are much too focused on finding a loop hole that allows unsolicited emails to be sent for the purpose of advertising by calling it marketing.

Because of your focus I went to Wikipedia and read through the definitions of marketing and advertising and minimum advertised price. There is a lot of text and so I will refrain from coping it here, but I will if you continue to hammer this issue. I would advise anyone who is still following this overlong argument to take a look at these, because it is pretty clear that marketing through email whether to all humans on the planet or to a targeted group is considered advertising. The word advertising is actually used in the definition of direct marketing. The definitions I found of minimum advertised price do not include the word "public". As far as I know,you introduce this additional qualifier.

Just like many other companies have done, I'm sure. Or is your spam filter only configured to allow messages from Goldenstar while blocking all others?

No. The SPAM from Goldenstar is not the only SPAM that gets through. The SPAM from Goldenstar is advertising and like the rest, I do look at some of it.

Loopee,

I would like you to take a look at the definition of direct marketing. I went to Wikipedia. It is described as a form of advertising and the emphasis is on the targeting process, how the advertiser increases the effectiveness of the effort, but there is no suggestion that it is designed to restrict the dissemination. There is no implied confidentially. I have received countless emails that do include requests for confidentially as I am sure you have and I assume that you respect them as I do. When someone has asked you to forward, or you elect to forward, an email that was sent to you spontaneously and without restriction from a company why would you think the company would not want that to be forwarded?

The document I have been talking about all along can be accurately described as a product catalog. It's long (20 pages), multicolored and includes descriptions of a wide variety of products (over 150) from a dozen or so companies from around the world (including Pangolin). It includes descriptions, pictures and prices. Although it was sent to me, like any catalog it is not addressed to a particular individual. This clearly took some time to produce and I am sure it has been sent to others. It has been amended with new pricing and sent to me, spontaneously and without any request, more than once. Whatever word you choose to describe this, the price advertised, listed or included for Quickshow is WAY WAY LOWER than the MAP that Buffo posted above. My concern is there seems to be such a large gap between her price and other distributors prices and the MAP that it might effect the rest of us. We may loose distributors that provide some value. If it is all secondary to quantity purchasing from the manufacture then that's fine with me and if all distributors are working with the same restrictions (or lack of them) then I have no problem or any issue.

Everyone,
I will state this for clarity. My only dealings with Winni were for two purchases of several lasers over the last year or so. Both orders were screwed up, the first was a power supply that arrived with the wrong voltage range and the second order was sent to a Russian and his order was sent to me. I described the first in one of my videos and I described the second in a thread here. Both issues were resolved. Each cost me an additional $60, that was not refunded by Goldenstarr and each delayed my projects by 6 weeks, but that's it. No big deal, but I am not enamored with Goldenstar as some on this forum are. Some of these problems arose from language differences and some from distance. I really liked the Laserwave lasers that she sent to me and it was for this reason that I made the decision to distribute these to the N. American market. I hoped to eliminate these problems for others and a profit sufficient to cover shipping and packaging was acceptable. The problem with this venture, I learned after entering it, is that the CN government (not Winni or Laserwave) have tax policy that makes it impossible for me to obtain these lasers at a price that allows me to sell them with out taking a loss. So, my issue is with the CN government not with Winni or Laserwave and the advertising she sends out does not affect me personally. I was under no restrictions and received no guarantees.

[buffo]

You refuse to make any attempt to recognizance the potential significance of what is being done to the distributors of this product.

Any distributor can do exactly the same thing Goldenstar did. And in fact, some have. Chuck over at Aixis was selling FB3's for a price very close to what Goldenstar was offering last spring. (He has since stopped that deal.) And just like Goldenstar, the price was not listed on their website or in any public advertisements, but it was offered in private to people who had done business with them before. (That price was within $70 of what Goldenstar is offering, BTW.)

Bottom line, the playing field is level, for all dealers. If a distributor wants to take a chance and buy several hundred controllers at a deep discount, that's well within their right. If they get stuck with unsold inventory, that's their loss.

If they also want to sell below the MAP, that is equally within their right, so long as they abide by the rules spelled out in the dealer agreement. The same rules apply to all dealers, large and small.

If you want to argue that being a large dealer (who can afford to take this risk) is an unfair advantage, I can only say that this is how a free market economy works.

I am not and I have never been a distributor of this product.

I never implied that you were, but the clarification is good anyway. For the record, I am not a distributor for Pangolin or Goldenstar either.

I will not stop accusing you of splitting hairs because this is what you are doing. You are much too focused on finding a loop hole that allows unsolicited emails to be sent for the purpose of advertising by calling it marketing.

Just stop right there. You keep accusing me of this, and it's high time you wise up, because this accusation right here is at the focus of my animosity towards you. So please pay attention:

I did not make up these definitions. I didn't invent the concept of MAP. I didn't "find a loop hole". I'm not gaming the system. I am simply explaining to you how the system works.

Loopee explained it above, with far more patience than I can muster right now, and you still don't get it. I'm not splitting hairs, I'm merely explaining to you (since you admit you've never been in a sales business) how a MAP works, and what constitutes "public advertising" (which is where the MAP comes into play). If you don't like the concept, fine. But don't blame me for it, because I didn't write the rules. I'm just explaining them here.

I had to learn how it all works when I got started in sales back in the late 1980's. All three sales businesses I've been involved with had MAP clauses in the dealer agreement. And they all specified the difference between targeted marketing (to clients your company had already established a relationship with) and public advertising (which was a mass-market media that included everyone and anyone, not just your clients). And yes, I agree that it seems convoluted. But for the last time, I DIDN'T INVENT IT.

So stop trying to accuse me of splitting hairs. This is how the system is set up. If you want to rail against the concept of a MAP, fine, but leave me out of it.

I went to Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is not going to have details on a dealer contract that specifies MAP conditions.

My concern is there seems to be such a large gap between her price and other distributors prices and the MAP that it might effect the rest of us. We may loose distributors that provide some value. If it is all secondary to quantity purchasing from the manufacture then that's fine with me and if all distributors are working with the same restrictions (or lack of them) then I have no problem or any issue.

Now why couldn't you have posted this paragraph at the beginning of your rant? Sure would have saved a lot of drama...

For the record, if a Pangolin dealer is willing to purchase at least 200 FB3's, they can get them for a very low wholesale price. (On the order of $100 or more lower than the price they would normally get if they only bought, say, 20 or 50 of them.) But I don't think guys like Mark at CT lasers or Dave at Lasershowparts would be willing to shell out that much cash up front in the hopes that they could sell 200 FB3's fast enough to make the deal worthwhile.

Adam