Pangolin demonstrates 90K ILDA at Prolight & runs 3 shows simoultaneously

[JD3]

Surely I'm not robbing you of your choice if I put I gun on your head and tell you to give me all your money, as you are free to give me all your money and live. I don't know why I even need to bring up this old example.


Honestly, if you think Pangolin would artificially block full power of hardware (which btw doesn't count as a "feature" as in something which had to be developed) so people would buy their more expensive product then you don't have a good opinion about them. Who does that!? That's like if Windows charged extra $1000 so you could use the other half of your RAM.

Video card manufacturers do it ALLL the time. You get X amout of cores "unlocked" in verson 6500. But you get ALL the cores unlocked in version 7000. EXACT same peices of hardware. Just one is limited, to be cheaper.
Another example. Cable TV, Satellite TV. Dont think i need to elaborate there.
Intel and AMD. Again. offer Multi-core Die's with one or more turned off so you would have to purchase the more expensive one for "full potential"
WINDOWS. The differences between using more RAM is... you guessed it.. what version you paid for.. look it up.
They limit the amount of ram you can run on which version of their software you have.
You know the physical difference between Windows Home and Windows Ultimate? The serial key you type in. They both come with the exact same features, same install file size. Just some are turned off if you didnt pay for them.

I could keep going. This is common practice in the tech industry and does not make Pangolin look bad.
Its actually smart.


/rant

[Stiffler]

^What he said.

The gun analogy is TERRIBLE.

[Pangolin]

our EMS-8000 with 3.8mm aperture mirrors (comparable with the Saturn 1) will do a nice 90K @4 deg, a little more than the saturn 1.

Tom, I've got two sets of your scanners -- one around two months old, and one delivered just a few days ago for comparison (so you can't say "well the ones we are delivering now are so much better than the ones two months ago"). Neither will do 60K (the way we rate things) and in fact, on the scope, we see a third-order-bump coming in already at 60K. The third order bump grows dramatically as the servo gain is increased. There's no freaking way that scanners with a 4.5 ohm coil and 140 microhenry inductance can do 90K at 4 degrees. And what you're calling "3.8mm mirrors" are probably really only 3mm mirrors the way that Cambridge and Pangolin would rate mirrors.

I guess we'll have to add more educational content to the Scanner MAX web site, to help people understand sizing and shaping of mirrors, and when and where to look for exaggerations.

Tom, just because you wish it, doesn't make it true. You've been talking about your scanners doing 60K for years, but at the past Florida Laser Enthusiasts Meeting when we show the images projected with them tuned that fast, the images look like crap. The lines are wobbling all over the place... The images at HB's booth were projected pretty small. It was impossible to see lines wobbling all over with an image that is only 3 inches wide (size of a neck tie). Planters made a YouTube video showing your scanners looking pretty good at around 41K, but that was with only a moderate angle, and even then the scanners got hot and amps got red hot. NO KIDDING! You're driving a 4.5 ohm coil with an H-bridge. In our case, our amps have a simple single-ended power stage, so it runs cool. (And no notch filter by the way...)

Anyway, we're not even stopping where we are now. On my Facebook page I showed where we had the Saturn 1 running at 120K, and I'm sure with our new little digital amp we can get more performance out of the 506. (Hehe -- maybe even 50.6K, which will then "logically" or numerically compete with DT-40s).

Bill

[Stiffler]

Bill,

Will you just hurry up & get a set to Planters so we can be done with this!! I respect that you & Tom are both passionate about your products, but without actual side-by-side testing it's tough to really know who is exaggerating, or just plain full of shit. As Jon said, each scanner may come out ahead in different areas, and I for one would like to see some results!

-Eric

[Pangolin]

What we'll be delivering to Planters is different from what we showed at Prolight. Plus, in fact what Tom delivered to Planters is different from what you'd imagine (different from any written or verbal description). What Tom delivered to Planters can only carry a 5mm beam upward by 10 degrees, or right-ward by 17 degrees. What we deliver carries a beam +/-30 degrees in all directions, so already the comparison would be of apples and oranges...

I can appreciate how people not familiar with the physics could be hood-winked by ANY fast-talking salesman. There is plenty exaggeration to go around! Frustratingly, here at Prolight I saw a projector with Cambridge scanners being touted as "100K scanners". (But the company selling that projector is well known for rating scan speeds in their own way...)

In any event, I hope you can see that -- since I'm the only person actually talking about the physics of scanning (instead of saying things like "performance is decreased"), and also showing pictures of our mirrors compared to competitors' mirrors, you can rest assured that we know what we're doing!

Bill

[Stiffler]

With all due respect Bill, I'll wait until I see Planter's comparison video before I draw any conclusions.

Cheers,

Eric

[Pangolin]

Sure ;-) Planters is a super smart guy who has made great videos.

[Stiffler]

Sure ;-) Planters is a super smart guy who has made great videos.

Yes he is, and yes he has. Your videos are equally as informative & entertaining, but in the absence of videos from Tom, I think a comparison video from Planters is the best way to evaluate the pros & cons of these scanners ;-)

BTW, did you get the email I sent you?

[White-Light]

Alan (is it?..)

Could you kindly let us all know how many sets of: EMS 4000s, EMS 7(or 8000)s, Cambridge CT-anything, Pangolin 506 or Saturn I or V Scanning Galvanometers.. you personally own / test / put thru the rigors of touring road-shows, time and again.. and then, Test-again? Your answer, please: __________________

Thanks
j

With all due respect to you Jon because you're a smart guy with tons of knowledge, I'm sure you realise you haven't had a pair of 506 or Saturns to compare to anything else either. So we're both at the mercy of the spec claims.

I personally don't like seeing claims that aren't compared like for like and that's what appeared to be happening here. One company claiming to be fastest in the world, when one didn't appear to have specified the type of test done for comparison. I could probably claim my Kvant LM's do 90K if I a played a line with only 2 points and projected it at 2 degrees. But that doesn't make them match a scanner that does even 60K ILDA or even allow a meaningful comparison. That's why comparing apples to apples as one company would put it is more important if as the end consumer, you want to really know how they all compare. If that brand that claimed to be the fastest are the fastest then great, I'm just as happy, so long as I can look, compare, choose.

As I see it there's room in the market for both brands irrespective of whose fastest (as not everyone will want the fastest anyway - for me for example 30K ILDA is fine), and the best way forward for a meaningful speed comparison for those bothered about ultimate speed, will be when Planters gets his hands on a pair and a test is done using the 30K ILDA standard test pattern and a real life show / cue scenario using wider angles.

[depo]

Surely I'm not robbing you of your choice if I put I gun on your head and tell you to give me all your money, as you are free to give me all your money and live. I don't know why I even need to bring up this old example.


Honestly, if you think Pangolin would artificially block full power of hardware (which btw doesn't count as a "feature" as in something which had to be developed) so people would buy their more expensive product then you don't have a good opinion about them. Who does that!? That's like if Windows charged extra $1000 so you could use the other half of your RAM.

Magus gets the award for worst analogy ever there is only a lazy 190GB difference of allowed ram between windows versions.

An unfair advantage or just an advantage?

Apple makes iTunes for both PC and Mac. But iPhone works a HELL of a lot better with iTunes on a Mac than it does on a PC... Does this mean Apple must "dumb down" what they can do on a Mac with an iPhone, for fear of upsetting PC users? I don't think so...

The difference between our scanners going >30K and everyone else's is heat. As you might have heard in my video, heat inside a scanner increases as the FOURTH POWER of scanning speeds! So this is why faster scanning is absolutely hazardous to scanners made in a conventional way. But our scanners do not even get hot! I believe that future versions of our Compact 506 will use a sheet metal mount, with the scanner mounted to the front of a piece of sheet metal held there with only two screws. This will allow us to reduce the cost as well. The only reason the other guys use such a thick metal mount is because they need to soak the heat away...

Bill

Apple doesn't need to be scared of upsetting PC users we are all happy saving 1000's by using PC's.
and the most common practice with itunes is to use it once, then quickly uninstall it and never speak of it again.