Page 3 of 14 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 132

Thread: Ideal sound card for multichannel scan and modulations.

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    3,702

    Default

    I highly doubt mamba uses the qm for anything other than a dac. LivePRO only uses the qm2000 as a dac as well, hence why it has been ported over to the flashback hardware so smoothly.
    KVANT Australian projector sales
    https://www.facebook.com/kvantaus/

    Lasershowparts- Laser Parts at great prices
    https://www.facebook.com/lasershowparts/

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    But, what is cool about WAV is that you can create a multichannel wav file with stereo music on channels 1&2 and the laser show on channels 3 through 8 or whatever. XYRGB + other. "Other" could be fed to a ADC to give you several TTL outputs. Or, you could simply dedicate the entire WAV to the lasershow.

    You can then take your lasershow hardware and wav file and play it back on any computer using windows media player!!!!
    (Bolded by me)

    I overlooked this because most of it was something I'd thought of before, but I read the whole thread just now (mostly so I could see what I'd said because I'm beginning to repeat myself), and I caught this:

    "Other" could be fed to a ADC to give you several TTL outputs.

    In some ways that could be awkward, as it needs level matching to some precision just to get 8 bits, let alone 16 matched accurately from a 24 bit output, but it could work. If you sent that channel out of digital S/PDIF, even better. While it couldn't be expected to work to sample accuracy on all switches at once, as this channel (or more likely, stereo pair) is effectively multiplexing to switch so many switches per channel, the control possibilities are awesome, as all the less time-critical outputs could be driven from this pair, including some modest speed and modest bitrate proportional stuff. This could be anything, moving a prism to select output lines intracavity on krypton argon lasers, swapping dichroic filters and moving gratings, switching beams, opening gravity/spring loaded safety beam shutters.....

    So, with a Layla 24 or other device with eight outs plus an S/PDIF digital pair, you could have a stereo music channel, X, Y, R, G, B, Aux on S/PDIF digital to dedicated hardware, plus two 24 bit analog ports for emergency backup or whatever use you see fit to put them to. Whole new protocols could be developed on that Aux pair alone.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    At risk of setting off flood alerts, I post again....

    Suppose you might decide that 8 bit colour was adequate. Many 5:1 sound cards offer a stereo pair on S/PDIF. These are common, very cheap, and 'only' 16 bits. Gary's thought leads to a lot of potential from very cheap, common hardware.

    With a small board to take digital S/PDIF data from a 16 bit stereo pair, you can send values for four 8-bit proportional outputs that can work at the same sample rates as the main data stream. From a 5:1 sound card, you get stereo music, plus two analog outs to run the galvos, plus full RGB in 8 bit colour controlled from the add-on board with either a 4th 8 bit channel for aux proportional control, or 8 independent switches. The S/PDIF can also supply a timing master sync signal for whatever might need one. There is so much dedicated hardware with 5:1 capability that a pre-programmed show wave could be stored in and played from a widget not much bigger than a USB stick.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 03-25-2007 at 07:25.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Pflugerville, TX, USA
    Posts
    1,977

    Default

    Yep, I definitely agree that using one channel with an ADC to produce several TTL outs is awkward. It was just an idea. Honestly, I don't understand the purpose of SPDIF on the soundcards or what you need to interface to it. But your idea sounds nice. Anyway, I am definitely going to give this some more thought, especially now that I have converted my lasers from TTL to analog.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DZurcher View Post
    I for one, prefer to have the qm2000 operating system handle running the show over a wintel platform. I have yet to this day had a qm2000 lockup or error out in any way. It is a very solid platform.
    I agree David... There is good reason to use dedicated hardware (like the QM 2000 board) when the show absolutely must go on.

    As for Carmangary's comment about not being able to use the hardware without the software and vice versa... He *is* actually half right. True, it is possible to use the Pangolin hardware with other software (IE: Mamba Black, as Astroguy has done), but as Dave pointed out, Mamba is only using the Pangolin as a raw DAC. It's not using any of the other features on the board. Still, it does work that way.

    But you *can't* do it the other way - that is, use the Pangolin software to control some other DAC, sound card or otherwise. And the reason behind this limitation has to do with the way the Pangolin software sends the show information to the card. It expects the full computer to be there, not some simple frame buffer. So in that respect Carmangary was right.

    Now, if you start with a laser show package that is expecting nothing more than a DAC, you're half way done. Write a driver for your sound card that interfaces with Mamba Black (or LDS, for that matter), throw in some filters and timing adjustments, and you might have a cheap replacement for the Easylase USB DAC... Wonder if you could make it profitable.?. For sure you could improve on the output resolution though.

    Adam

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Native Floridian
    Posts
    3,127

    Default

    As for Carmangary's comment about not being able to use the hardware without the software and vice versa... He *is* actually half right.
    I didn't mean to dispute the fact that pangolin software will not work with another dac, that is a given. The way I see it, pangolin software is sorta just a window into the qm2000.

    Regarding MAMBA, I'd be surprised if that is the way it works. Here is a great page on Pangolin's website that explains the ability for someone to write software to run the card:

    http://www.pangolin.com/LD2000/LD2000_sdk.htm

    David
    Last edited by DZ; 03-25-2007 at 18:40. Reason: grammer

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffo View Post
    Now, if you start with a laser show package that is expecting nothing more than a DAC, you're half way done. Write a driver for your sound card...
    No, write a way to link the app output to the OS so it uses whatever sound card/driver is installed. Doing it the other way risks conflict, might mean the sound card is useless to the OS, and limits the user to one specific card, which is exactly what we need to avoid.

    Edit:
    Gary, I had a look at possible S/PDIF stuff and I'm stumped, I found that Cirrus Logic make a few IC's that decode it but nothing that will work as a one-chip way to take S/PDIF in and spit out 16 parallel data lines. That kind of electronics is beyond me anyway. All I know is that whatever IC could do it, would have to have a LOT of pins on it...
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 03-25-2007 at 23:34.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    No, write a way to link the app output to the OS so it uses whatever sound card/driver is installed. Doing it the other way risks conflict, might mean the sound card is useless to the OS, and limits the user to one specific card, which is exactly what we need to avoid.
    I stand corrected. Your approach is indeed superior. Being able to use several different sound cards vs a single card is smart. (Though I don't know how much good the sound card would be to the host PC once you remove the DC filtering, etc, to make it suitable for laser show use...)

    So... When can I download this software patch you're working on?

    Seriously though - it's a great idea. If you can pull together the talent needed to make this happen, I'm sure you'll have lots of interested laserists e-mailing you...

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    I can't code worth a damn. I can think through things I understand and can reduce them to good efficiency, and help by sharing what I know, but sound card drivers and API's and such leave me cold (and C++ seems unreadable to me, as I can't verbalise it in any way to help me understand it, and most serious apps are coded in it). I can advise on how to cheaply bypass the 2.25V DC offset made by the DAC reference voltage, but code really isn't something I know well enough. I can judge good code by its effects, but I'm a driver not a mechanic, I only know enough to solve simple tasks. The people who can do what needs to be done are specialists, they live, work and breathe code, almost. The task only needs doing once per program, the best thing is for buyers of Mamba Black to persuade the makers to release one that can send data to sound card channels. Once one does, others might follow.

    The reason I picked the Layla 24 is that its DAC reference voltage is cleverly handled, it's actually zeroed before the DC blocking cap, so you can short that out and have everything you want, pro audio capability, and full DC output capability, so any wave from DC to 48 KHz sine can be put out by this now. When the 2.25V is present behind the output capacitor, it's not so much the audio that is limited, most audio inputs have their own DC blocking caps, so the worst you'd get is some mighty thumping noises if you moved plugs while the volume was high. It's the DC coupled scan amps that really need that offset removed before they get fed. One good thing about driving multiple cards is that the program can be told to use a card that is modified, while the OS defaults to sending sound data to an unmodified card. A lot of people will find this easier. Most decent audio apps are coded this way.


    One interesting thought I just had: Does Mamba Black make any sound output to sound cards as part of its function? If so, the hack might be a lot easier to manage, as the code required might be there already. Even so, it could still be hard to do even for an expert, as I think Mamba is not open source. It would take a very accomplished cracker to solve this without getting the makers to do it.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 03-26-2007 at 07:24.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    I can't code worth a damn.
    I hear you, brother. I majored in comp-sci, but picked the "Internet Management" track rather than the straight programming track. Why? Easy... Unless you're in the top 3%, you won't make squat as a programmer, and I'm not in the top 3%. (More like the middle 3% !)

    Of course, the whole Internet Management thing didn't work out either, since the bubble burst during my junior year, and I'm still not using my degree today. And before anyone does the math and deduces that I'm only 26, I should point out that I didn't go back to school until I was already in my 30's...

    The Layla 24 card sounds like a great platform to start with. Maybe one of our other European members can help out with the code. I know Thomas (aka TL) is pretty swift when it comes to code... He might be interested. Also, I think Grover was a coder.?.
    One interesting thought I just had: Does Mamba Black make any sound output to sound cards as part of its function? If so, the hack might be a lot easier to manage, as the code required might be there already.
    Mamba does have audio output, and it's through the windows sound device, not to a specific sound card driver. The software itself is probably pretty obscure, but they do give specs for the driver files for DACs so you can write your own... Dunno how open they'd be to this idea though.

    Adam

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •