New place for other thread grossly OT

[Pangolin]

Since another thread has gone grossly off topic (admittedly because of some of my own posts), I am trying to be a good citizen by bringing it here.

so I will post this link first regarding the Commodore 64 and Commodore Amiga computers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga

These are the same family of computers and programmed in Basic for there derivative language but various C compilers were later developed for the Z84 derivative in the Amiga

Huh? I searched the referenced Wiki article on the Amiga, and can find no semblance of "the same family of computers". Likewise, I can find no reference to "Z84 derivative". If you mean Z80 derivative, perhaps you're thinking of the Commodore 128, which had both a Western Design 6502 (actually enhanced 8502) and Zilog Z80.

In any event, the original point made was:

The original version of pangolin was based around the Commodore 64.

Which is simply untrue, no matter how you want to slice it.

I will also deal with Bill's accusations of me copying graphics that were provided by Michael L Roberts

It wasn't an accusation -- just a question. If you have permission from L. Michael Roberts to use the particular Porky Pig animation, then you do. But you should check your sources on who provided the other graphics, because those were created by me and Patrick and we can prove that. Moreover, we did not give others permission to distribute those graphics to third parties.

I will write to L. Michael Roberts and see if he provided our frames, but I will be a little bit surprised if he did. In my memory, he was more careful about the art-ware of others, being a creator of art-ware himself...

and the end user licence we use that was provided to me by MSDN.

When you say "provided to me", did Microsoft explicitly give you permission to re-use their text in its entirety (only changing the word "Microsoft" to "Laser Electronics", and changing the word "Softtware" to "Software/Hardware")?

Bill

[Laser Electronics Ltd]

Hi Bill
I want to be a good citizen to and will reply accordingly.
Commodore created the family of computers 64 and Amiga, you even reference the Commodore Amiga on your website.
I don't want this thread to be an issue, we are doing this on Memorial Day, it should be remembered where we and the industry that we have the privilege to be part of came from.
As I said in my previous post, I will deal with each of these issues accordingly.
Why did you feel the need to move this post?
Shouldn't an open discussion be visible to all?
Thanks
Clive

[Pangolin]

Commodore created the family of computers 64 and Amiga, you even reference the Commodore Amiga on your website.

Your original statement was that "the original version of pangolin was based around the Commodore 64". My only point was to say that this is simply untrue. Commodore 64 came many years before the Amiga was developed. And yes, we reference Amiga on our web site because "the original version of Pangolin was based on Amiga" (not Commodore 64).

we are doing this on Memorial Day, it should be remembered where we and the industry that we have the privilege to be part of came from.

Two questions:

1. Does UK share the same memorial day that we do in the USA?
2. Do you really think we can convince Hallmark to create a national (or even worldwide) holiday to celebrate the history of the laser entertainment industry?

As I said in my previous post, I will deal with each of these issues accordingly.

Yes you've said it, and keep saying it, but have not dealt with any of the issues...

Why did you feel the need to move this post?
Shouldn't an open discussion be visible to all?

I moved it for reasons that are clear, and stated in the other post, and also in the title of this thread. And no matter what any of us do, this will surely be "an open discussion visible to all"...

Bill

[buffo]

While I don't want to get into the rest of this debate, as I do not have all the facts, I do wish to comment on the following point:

Commodore created the family of computers 64 and Amiga

That does not mean they are "the same family". Commodore also created the PET, the Vic-20, and the Commodore 128. Of these machines, the Amiga was unique in that it was not backward compatible with any of the other machines (neither hardware nor software compatible). The Commodore 64 and 128 were the closest to each other, and if you include the Vic-20 you could make the case that those three machines belong in a "family" together, but that's as far as the compatibility goes.

With regard to the Amiga in particular, it was a quantum leap forward compared to the Commodore 64. It used a true 32-bit microprocessor (the Motorolla 68000), and the operating system supported preemptive multi-tasking. It also included several custom IC's for exceptional graphics and sound. In fact, the sound chip (code-named Gary EDIT: Paula... Gary was bus I/O, my bad!) was actually used as an output device in the earliest versions of the Pangolin Amiga software. (with some modifications to allow it to pass DC, of course) By comparison, the Commodore 64 was an 8-bit, single-tasking machine that didn't even have a windowed operating system. (Command line only)

Bottom line - comparing the Commodore 64 to the Amiga is like comparing a moped to a dragster. They aren't even close to being in the same league. There's no way the advanced Pangolin Laser Show software would have ever been able to run on the Commodore 64 hardware. It just wasn't up to the task.

And for the record, there *WAS* a very basic laser show controller that ran on the Commodore 64, but it wasn't developed by Pangolin. Rather, it was released by "LaserDreams", and it was very primitive. Pangolin started with the Amiga, and then migrated to the PC. They have never developed anything for the Commodore 64.

If you are going to speak with authority about these machines, you better make sure you know what you're talking about, because there are lots of old-school Amiga people present here on PL. I was the president of the Charleston Area Amiga User's Group for over 3 years, and I've owned every Amiga computer ever made, save for the original A1000. I still have two Amigas in storage, in fact. Likewise, Pangolin's early development was all done on the Amiga, so Bill certainly understands the architecture of the machine very well.

Bill's point is valid. If you're going to comment on his work, get your facts right. The Commodore 64 has no bearing on Pangolin's work, period.

Adam

[soforene]

..... Does UK share the same memorial day that we do in the USA? ...
Bill

No Sirree Bob.
We have Remembrance Day which commemorates the ending of WW1.
At 11:00 on the 11th of November (11/11 - it's the same spelled in English or Yank! ) we observe 2 minutes silence to remember those who gave their lives in not only WW2 but all the other conflicts that have claimed those who have served.

[colouredmirrorball]

WW1* and some chars

[dzodzo]

It used a true 32-bit microprocessor (the Motorolla 68000), and the operating system supported preemptive multi-tasking.

32-bit cpu but with 16-bit data bus at least as far as A500 goes?

going OT in an OT topic

[buffo]

32-bit cpu but with 16-bit data bus at least as far as A500 goes?

Yep. That's why I said 32 bit microprocessor and not 32 bit architecture.

It wasn't until the A3000 that the Amiga had a true 32-bit path throughout the machine, although there were add-ons for both the A500 and the A2000 that would allow you to add the motorolla 68030 CPU and local 32-bit fast-ram, giving true 32-bit architecture for at least part of the machine. (In fact, I still have a GVP A530 Turbo unit for my A500. It has a 25 Mhz 68030 and the 68882 math co-processor on board, plus 8 megs of fast-ram and a SCSI HD controller and boot drive.) Positively pedestrian by today's standards, but in the late 1980's that made for one hell of a smokin' fast box!

going OT in an OT topic

It's still vaguely on-topic... That's my story anyway!

Adam

Edit: Since Clive hasn't replied here, but did continue the "Amiga = Commodore 64" nonsense in the other thread where this drama first began, I put my latest reply there. Long story short, his recollection of the Amiga's history is seriously flawed, and even when he consults Wikipedia, he doesn't realize that it proves he's wrong so he posts the link anyway. Sigh...

[Laser Electronics Ltd]

Ok let's go back to the RISC Architecture, and not dissimulate.
8 bit structure and architecture.

[infredible]

Adam,

I believe the Amiga 500 sound chip was called Paula not Gary. I had the a 500 running LSD1000 with G120 back then.

Fred.

It used a true 32-bit microprocessor (the Motorolla 68000), and the operating system supported preemptive multi-tasking. It also included several custom IC's for exceptional graphics and sound. In fact, the sound chip (code-named Gary) was actually used as an output device in the earliest versions of the Pangolin Amiga software. (with some modifications to allow it to pass DC, of course) By comparison, the Commodore 64 was an 8-bit, single-tasking machine that didn't even have a windowed operating system. (Command line only)