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Thread: ground fogger and regular fogger use different fluids?

  1. #1
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    Default ground fogger and regular fogger use different fluids?

    15 characters dude
    Last edited by solidude; 04-28-2016 at 14:57.

  2. #2
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    It all depends on what sort of hazer you get.

    IF its a cheap one (a fogger with a fan basically) then use the same fluid.

    If its a decent one (Look, Smoke Factory, HazeBase, etc) then use their recommended fluid.

    And of course, if you're buying an oil cracker, you need to use an oil based fluid.
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    http://www.frikkinlazors.co.uk

    You are using Bonetti's defense against me, ah?

    I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by solidude View Post
    Okay, so i was lately in a small shop i found with cheap lightning equipment and some flog fluids for sale.
    Messing around in the ole torture supply store, eh?

  4. #4
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    For ground fogging, there's no real need to use specific fluid for ground effects though many companies will market such a thing. In the end, any short hang time fog fluid will work well. With ground fogging, chilling the fog is what keeps it low, however after a short time it will warm up to ambient air temperature and start to rise into the air, so for a good chilled fog ground type effect, you want it to dissipate before the temp rises to ambient. A basic propylene glycol type fluid is probably good for this.

    For a laser show type fog, best is a long hang time fluid, preferably using triethylene glycol or dipropylene glycol. Avoid fogs that primarily use propylene glycol as the result tends to be a thick fog that doesn't reflect light well and a shorter hang time. Some brands will add glycerin to propylene glycol in order to get a longer hang time out of it, but I find it still doesn't have great refraction properties.

    The formulation of the fluid makes probably the biggest difference overall to laser effects, I find in a lot of cases as much or more so than laser power. Particularly in larger venues.

    Edit, just to add regarding haze machines, oil based of course use mineral oil. But pretty much all the others use glycerin as various dilutions, aside from the fazer type low cost machines which will just use fog fluid.

    The glycerin type machines are very easy to make your own fluid for, with the name brands often marking up their fluids 10x or more the cost to produce it. You just need to match the dilution, which ranges from 90% down to 20% depending on the machine. One can find this out fairly easy by matching up the specific gravity. And make sure you use food grade or better glycerin.
    Last edited by m0f; 06-22-2014 at 22:06.

  5. #5
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    Re oil based hazers, they use a particular grade of light mineral oil, but yes it's generally available quite cheaply, and on top of that they don't use much of it. Oil is one fluid you probably don't want to buy cheap, as there are lower grades out there that may not be safe to inhale, but generally speaking you can use cheaper american dj fluid in a df50 for example at half the price. They use so little of it that a bottle will last a very long time.

    But most oil based hazers are oil crackers so they use compressed air rather than heat to produce the haze. So if it has a heater in it, or requires a warm up cycle then it's a good indication that it's a water based machine.

    If it's a cheap one, likely it's going to just use a glycol or highly diluted glycerin type mixture.

    For ground fog fluid, glycerin's a bad thing as leaves a long lasting haze, so typically will be propylene glycol / water as it's one of the shorter lasting fluids. No matter what you'd still need a chiller.

    Oil doesn't really leave all that much residue, though can build up if you're using it in the same venue day after day, but mostly will build up in lights or any equipment cooled by a fan as the fan will compress it out of the air, so will tend to pool in those cases.

    As for which is best, a lot depends on the venue. For very large venues such as arenas and larger, the oil will be much better at getting an even distribution of it throughout the venue, as the hang time is very long and also not prone to layering due to temperature differentials.

    That being said, an actual fog machine (triethylene glycol or dipropylene glycol based), dissipated into a haze with a fan will provide the brightest laser effects, thicker looking beams and much more intense looking liquid sky type effects. Oil produces a different type of effect, effects look higher in resolution, finer beams, colours look deeper / more pure (hard to describe without seeing it side by side), but liquid sky effects tend to look a bit dull and overall just not as bright.

    Water based haze (proper glycerin type machines) are somewhere in the middle, brighter effects than oil, not as bright as proper fog. Works better in very large venues than shorter hang time fogs but long hang time fogs work just as well imo.

    After a lot of experimenting, the best setup I've found for the look that I like is fog w/ fan in a smaller room, oil based haze + fog w/ fan in larger venues (best of both worlds) and multiple fog w/ fan outdoors as needed. There are times just oil comes in handy such as when a thicker atmosphere is not desired such as sit down dinner banquets, cetain types of smoke alarms, corporate events, etc.

    As for getting rid of fog / haze, aside from ventilation there is no easy way. Oil is good when needing a haze that isn't really visible until hit with light beams. Or a quick dissipating fog fluid is also handy when you need it gone within a few minutes. Basically plan ahead and choose an appropriate fluid / machine.

    One good way to see it for yourself before buying into it, is to rent. That way you can find out what works good for before spending too much on it.
    Last edited by m0f; 06-23-2014 at 00:42.

  6. #6
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    ok I HAVE to chime in here......
    first Propylene Glycol CAN be toxic. Safe in small amounts but NOT for inhalation.

    Glycerin however is a simple sugar, no one is allergic to and safe to inhale too!

    So here IS the proper recipe for making Both kinds of fluids.
    Common fog= 1 part Glycerin, 6 parts water
    Ground hugging Dense fog= 1 part Glycerin, 4 parts water. inject through icebed or chiller plate. A converted AC unit works awesome!
    Works in ANY fog machine.
    If your fog machine is plugged up... try white vinegar and run till clean, then distilled water, and it will work like brand new!

    Never use oil based fog fluid EVER!!

    Symptoms of Chemical poisoning - Propylene Glycol 10 symptoms listed below:

    Eye irritation
    Eye redness
    Eye pain
    CNS depression
    Black fecal discoloration
    Reduced blood pressure
    Tearing eyes
    Stupor
    Porphyria
    Seizures

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuphotonix View Post
    ok I HAVE to chime in here......
    first Propylene Glycol CAN be toxic. Safe in small amounts but NOT for inhalation.

    Glycerin however is a simple sugar, no one is allergic to and safe to inhale too!

    So here IS the proper recipe for making Both kinds of fluids.
    Common fog= 1 part Glycerin, 6 parts water
    Ground hugging Dense fog= 1 part Glycerin, 4 parts water. inject through icebed or chiller plate. A converted AC unit works awesome!
    Works in ANY fog machine.
    If your fog machine is plugged up... try white vinegar and run till clean, then distilled water, and it will work like brand new!

    Never use oil based fog fluid EVER!!

    Symptoms of Chemical poisoning - Propylene Glycol 10 symptoms listed below:

    Eye irritation
    Eye redness
    Eye pain
    CNS depression
    Black fecal discoloration
    Reduced blood pressure
    Tearing eyes
    Stupor
    Porphyria
    Seizures
    I have to completely disagree with you on pretty much everyone of your points. First, while glycerin itself might be non toxic, it *can* become very toxic after running through a heater block. There is a very detailed thread about DIY fog fluid and the potential pit falls here: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...highlight=zorn. Second, ground fog is thinner, not thicker than normal fog. Third, I don't know of ANY oil base fog fluids, only oil base haze fluid. In regards to oil base haze fluid, they are pretty safe.

  8. #8
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    If you had read my above post, it explained in detail the use of oil based haze machines and fluids, which as specified is almost always cracker style, no heat, compressed air. The only exception that I know of is the MDG series of machines. There was no mention of oil based fog machines in my above post, however they do exist (MDG previously made them, among others). I own a DF50, which is cracker style, as described above works great for it's purpose, though a good fog actually makes for a better effect in most scenarios.

    Propylene glycol is very commonly used in fog fluids, much more so than glycerin. Check out any fog fluid's MSDS. As well triethylene glycol is very commonly used both are generally regarded as safe and have a long history of use in the industry along with many studies proving their safety.

    Glycerin is also used at times, but in general not a great idea especially in home made fog fluids due to the potential for acrolein if overheated. Besides that it makes for a poor quality fog vs any of the others. In general fog machines are calibrated for glycols and as such if the machine in question doesn't have a heat setting for glycerin fluids / or specifically designed for glycerin fluids such as the radiance, then it's much better in all aspects to use propylene or preferably dipropylene or triethylene glycols.

    Edit : On a side note, the radiance and similar machines can safely vaporize glycerin as they have a very well regulated heater block calibrated for glycerin, as well as an air pump constantly pushing air through the heating block which quickly purges left over glycerin vapours. This air pump is also what allows for the highly concentrated glycerin fluid that it uses.

    For ground fog, glycerin is useless as well due to very long hang time.

    In the end, it makes sense to just buy a fluid, preferably based on triethylene glycol due to the great refraction properties. It hangs a long time and therefore very little is needed, so it really doesn't make much sense in the end to go cheap. Unless you have a good source of low cost high grade triethylene glycol, it doesn't make sense to make your own fluid.

    For ground fog, fluids based on propylene glycol are probably the best due to the short hang time and thick dense clouds, and the poor refraction properties don't matter as it's not being used for laser / lighting effects. And it tends to be a bit cheaper. Propylene glycol is widely available and some may be tempted to make fluids based on it, however the refraction properties of the fog are poor, so imo while many brand name fluids (typically the lower cost fluids) are based on it, imo it's only really useful if used for a ground fog type scenario (non lighting / laser uses).

    As for safety, ever had a McD0*alds Soft Serve Ice cream or Milk Shake ? They contain propylene glycol due to it's antifreeze properties, as do many foods. E-Cigarettes fluids are also often based on propylene glycol due to the fact it's generally regarded as safe. It's true that pretty much all glycols are at least slightly toxic, but while ethylene glycol is very toxic, propylene glycol has a long history of use in foods, pharmaceuticals, commercial fog fluids, etc.
    Last edited by m0f; 06-25-2014 at 09:37.

  9. #9
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    Are you talking about the foam machines for foam parties at nightclubs? If so, then yeah - it's basically eye-safe shampoo that has been diluted with water, plus a thickening agent (usually glycerin) to make the suds last longer.

    We have a product here called "baby shampoo" made by Johnson & Johnson that when mixed with water and a little glycerin makes *TONS* of foam out of one of these machines. Non-toxic, doesn't irritate your eyes, and cheaper than the commercial foaming fluid.

    However, it makes a hellish mess. God help you if you take your laser projector to one of these events. You *WILL* get foam in your gear, I promise. The only thing worse than a foam party is a PAINT party. Don't even get me started on that retarded bullshit... (Ugh!)

    Adam

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    However, it makes a hellish mess. God help you if you take your laser projector to one of these events. You *WILL* get foam in your gear, I promise. The only thing worse than a foam party is a PAINT party. Don't even get me started on that retarded bullshit... (Ugh!)

    Adam
    There is a popular EDM group by the name of "Chicken & Porn" whose shtick is throwing buckets of fried chicken into the crowd. Not as messy as foam or paint, but much more disgusting.

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