Holy crap! mirrors on DT40 pros vs CT6215, wow!

[Pangolin]

Hi Coo

Good point about interpretting things as offensive, or being defensive. It sure is difficult to tell the tone of things in an email or forum posting.

Just a quick note. There are some switching power supplies for lasers, and some are quite small. One was shown at the FLEM, operating a Coherent laser, although I forget the guys' name who made it. And Craig Nelson of Logic Systems also makes a generic switching power supply for lasers. Craig's web site is: www.lsione.com

Also, just one more quick note. Sometimes when you see something and think "hmmm. well that's just stupid", it really is stupid... But as I said, hopefully with the musings of the multi-faceted talents of Photon Lexicon members, we can all discover which is which

Best regards,

William Benner

[The_Doctor]

@Doc, you can view US Patents online, at www.uspto.gov. You will need to click on the "Patents" section on the left, and then "Search patents" if memory serves... Also, you will need to install a plug-in for your browser to view the patent images. I use "AlternaTIFF". It's free and it works great.

Nice. Thankyou. I found one of yours. And some others, Only started looking late last night/early morning. I've been modelling much more accuracy and making notes, so I have some detail, I won't look more closely at patents till I'm sure I have my design right. Several good ideas have arisen from it to add to it. If I looked at patents first, all that would teach me is what others have invented. I think it's always worth risking re-invention of a good wheel, it's the best chance of thinking original thoughts about it, and coming up with something patentable. Also, that is the only way I can come up with enough refined clarity to even use a patent search...

If anyone can tell me any actual patent numbers for X/Y scanners so I can go directly to them, please do. So far, the only thing that I have to go on is that my idea will work, but that no-one seems to be doing it, and if there was a patent, it's likely that someone would be building them to sell.

I recommend you to the following. First, you can poke around on USPTO and see if you can find any prior art which would destroy the novelty of your invention. My experience has been that USPTO is faster and easier to search than WIPO. If you can't find anything in USPTO, then search WIPO. If you can't find anything there, and your idea seems unique, you can hire an IP attorney and file a "provisional patent application". That will preserve your filing date, and also it involves minimum cost of between $500 and $1000 US. Then you can figure out where to go with your idea after that.

I'll do the searches for that reason, mainly. Does 'Prior Art' only mean prior patent, or also include other proof like copyright with sealed copies dated and sent to sender with a recorded delivery, or published with witnesses to the publication? £250 to £500 is a LOT to spend on something that only gives time limited protection against unauthorised commercial exploits. As my best shot would be to sell the idea, or give it away to all so it can't be made private, I suspect patenting might not be the best way. Any legal protection that would give me a decent position to haggle with a maker of scan systems for rights to it will be enough. They'd be in a better position to patent than I am, and have more appropriate use of that system, I'd just want to make sure I got paid enough to help me do things I want to do.

At any point in time (before or after you have filed a provisional application), I would love to see what you have come up with. I would be willing to sign a Non Disclosure / Non Compete agreement, and can advise you on whether I have seen your idea in practice before, and its applicability into various segments (display, making, cutting, etc.). Those who know me know that I am honorable and, as a further testament, everyone who has worked with Pangolin in an IP capacity, at any point in the past, is still working with us today. This is a good indication that we don't "screw" people

Sounds good to me, and I liked the clarity of the patent of yours I saw. It was clear, establishing the specific claims instead of obfuscating badly in either laziness or a desire to try to stir up entrapping wordage to try to catch other uninvented ideas; avoiding that looks honourable to me. I'm not yet ready, but I might show you before trying much else, as I don't see how a patent lawyer can know enough specifics to be the best person to establish if it's viable, it seems like something I have to find people to trust with first, who already know enough to be in a position to use it themselves.

For now I just want to model it as accurately as possible, given new learning about methods of making standard scanner parts that I've picked up here. I originally considered the front surface of mirrors to be on the axis, but mirrors are best spun around their mass centres. Sounds obvious, but it complicated my work while adjusting to that. Fortunately, the off-axis placing of the front surface solves a significant problem that would otherwise exist.

What I really want to do is just finish it, get excited and give it away and make people keen to use it, but I'm getting old enough to need money beyond expectation for medical bills and such. Nothing like aging to blunt idealism and sharpen it in new ways.

[Pangolin]

Hi Doc,

Just a few points.

When I have run into scanning solutions in the past, that used "multiple reflection" techniques, they were not that easy to find. I am not sure if your idea uses "multiple reflections" or not, but in any event you will have to do some digging.

There are many X-Y scanning patents and, even though I have patents of my own, I always have to re-dig for things each next time I patent something. You might start by searching for "General Scanning" or "GSI Lumonics" as the "Assignee" and also "Jean Montague" (former president of General Scanning) as the "Inventor", and then go from there. You will notice that each patent "references" other patents, and also there is often a list of patents that reference that one. I usually use General Scanning and Jean Montague as a start because General Scanning has so many patents, and with the references "into" and "out of" General Scanning patents, you are likely to find most of what you are looking for. You will need a good size sheet of paper and pencil (or spread sheet?) to keep track of all of the relevant entries.

"Prior Art" means any PUBLIC information. A lot of public information can be found in patent databases, but also any magazine article, web site, or other public information will be considered to be "Prior art". You can't patent anything where prior art exists. Also you can't patent anything that is "obvious to those skilled in the art". One problem is, it might not be obvious to you, but might be obvious to someone else. So sometimes this is a point of contention with patent examiners.

If you only found one patent of mine then you aren't digging very hard I'll let you discover the rest as part of your research... In any event, almost all of my patents will look similar, in that I take a similar approach in terms of the layout and makeup of the patent. I have my own template I work from, each time I do a patent. Also, almost all of the writing is my own, which is unique for patents. Most patents are written by attorneys...

As a final note, a provisional application or utility application are the only things that are effective at proving what you knew and when. Contrary to popular belief, mailing something to yourself, or having something notarized will not hold up (so I am told by IP attorneys).

Best regards,

William Benner

[The_Doctor]

I didn't dig at all hard. Yet. I only looked at the end of a long exhausting session because I wanted to have at least worked out what to do when I spent real time on it. The names are useful, I realised the links between patents would be the best leads, that's why I wanted a few direct pointers, so that will help.

As to being obvious, I think my idea IS obvious. The question is, is it only so in hindsight? Or was it not done because it was deemed too difficult to make easily or accurately, or even be worth exploring, or have too little gain if successful? All I know is that it is obvious to me, and unless I made some fundamental gaff, which so far it seems I have not, then it should be being DONE because it seems to allow a major improvement, and it isn't. That alone is reason to think I have something good. The more I model it, the more it looks like it will work.

I will probably just publish it here. That makes it prior art if it isn't already, which meets one of my possible conditions required for release. If I'm right, I have something many people will want to do, and if they can do it without falling foul of a private, possibly ruthless enterprise, that suits me fine. As it's unpatentable, IF not already patented, then anything not disclosed is still negotiable on a private basis, but I'm not doing this because I think it will make me money. I'm doing it because it seems worth doing.

Edit:
Re attorneys saying that only the things they deal with will stand up as proof, well, they would say that, wouldn't they? Patents are cited as a way to put information in the public domain, but they're founded on secrecy, as that's the only way they can be established. That can be both good and bad, and is frequently abused. We might have all had small cheap blue lasers a decade ago if a few companies han't got together with a ruthless use of patent law. If they'd been traders taking commercial advantage with commercial instead of intellectual values, they'd have been punished for running a cartel. My sole interest in patents up till now has been to learn enough to make sure that if I publish an idea it can't later be privatised legally. I'm still trying to see what a patent could help me with, as far as I know, it could only protect a method or system I was going to make, for long enough for my work to become profitable, but I'm not going to be manufacturing this idea.

Maybe one possibility is for someone who can use it and has established business and an interest in making it in bulk to make me a pleasant offer I can't refuse, with a mutual exchange of NDA's but I'll finish the thing and look deeper at related patents before taking that thought seriously.

[buffo]

Just a quick note. There are some switching power supplies for lasers, and some are quite small. One was shown at the FLEM, operating a Coherent laser, although I forget the guys' name who made it.

That would be Gary Stadler, who designed the Aurora Power Supply that Clandestiny (Paul) was using at FLEM. Unfortunately, I think Gary is retired from the laser business. (He lives in Del Mar, California) I don't know if he still sells/repairs those Aurora units anymore or not.

For what it's worth though, here's his home page. It's got an e-mail link...

Adam

[dave]

Dean from Nitelight does repairs on these, I believe he is the only one with schematics for the Aurora's

[yaddatrance]

Since both Dean and Gary are from my neck of the woods,

Gary has retired does not support the Aurora anymore, but he does have a huge pile of PCBs and parts (enough to make a dozen auroras at his shop.)

He's now making music and enjoying his ranch The aurora power supplies are well made but they rely on clean power, faulty power will take out the power supply and possibly the tube. This is one of the reasons auroras had a less than stellar name in the biz a while back. They're excellent engineering and a proper buckboost + scrubber in front will keep anything bad from happening... Last I talked with him, he said he might assemble one if you asked *really* nicely for around $3k...

P.S. I am not a fan of Dean, I have had to fix a sequence of big problems (due to a lack of his experience) that he created in the past. I would say I might trust him to retube a laser, but I do not trust him at all around electronics.

[editted to add]
There exists a need for a new fresh SMPS power supply (haha dept. of redundancy dept) though, there's been quite a few advances in technology since the original ones were made... Problems like ripple can be fixed by waving the magic
wand of technology at it nowadays.

[Coo-mo-d]

ah yes Dean From what I heard Gary had sold all the rights and leftovers of the Aurora-40 to Dean which is why he is the only one with schematics and able to service them. Also that the Aurora was a very robust supply, and the main reasons for any faults that occured was due to incorrect power wiring (also can be wired for 3-phase) or failure to check the buildings power or your own input wiring. User @ Fault, thus giving the Aurora its less than stellar name though I could be wrong.

That was the idea to design a new SMPS supply with todays technology, more effecient, and stable but for large frame lasers not mid-frame. No more cartin around thos big heavy supplys or troubleshooting some 100 odd passbank transistors to find the culprit. The amount of power saved from the efficency, especially at the largeframe laser energy levels would be immense. Probably could get away with being air-cooled still with todays IGBTs. Only thing stopping me from designing a new mid-frame supply is the risk of blowing a tube

[yaddatrance]

Heh from what I've found tubes are pretty resiliant if you're watching and
turn it off if the voltages are sane, the magnet is what toasts and those
aren't too expensive to replace... The only "big" problem is if you run keep
running too much current continually and the cathode sags, The SP265 for
all it's faults is really good at keeping tubes alive, the aurora has one failure
scenario (when a critical component fails) which would dump unfiltered AC
current into the tube. To get that to happen on a 265 you'd have to
repeatedly turn off and on a unit with a partially blown passbank.

If your PSU is aircooled, that would be nice because the majority of the heat
is generated by the PSU so in that case, you could get by with a very small
chiller or maybe even just a heat exchanger for the head.

Now I'm not promising anything, but I do have a copy of the schematic around here somewhere, I got it and tossed it in a stack of papers about 5 years ago. I'll rummage through some old boxes to see if I can dig it out.

[JeroenVDV]

Update to this topic:

I had a guy coming over to me to do some power-measuring. My 1W Viasho 532nm still outputs more than 1400mW. That's great!

However, projected using the DT-40's, I got 750mW output. Almost 50% LOSS ON THE DT-40 MIRRORS!!!!!!!!