are video projectors replacing laser projectors for graphics?

[absolom7691]

Fun fact: new discussions can start in an existing thread.

That would be nice......


@Al, This could be a result of the camera but the discrete colors withing the projected lines look somewhat mottled too. I get that some of the fans are meant to be blended but that ones that aren't don't look sharp. Laser doesn't do that. Sharp defined colors with no blending.

[dsli_jon]

Okay, so I'm very new to this industry, so apologies if to some of the veterans here I seem to lack some very basic knowledge.

..So, even when people that do both video-projection / mapping and laser graphics for a living, give you experience-based answers, you continue to fan this into 6 pages of the same doused-campfire... yet.. you're 'not trolling'??

...What's so special about the light generated with lasers, aside from coherence? You guys don't answer this.

Sorry, but spoonfeeding gets old really quick when it's constantly being spat-out... Why don't you try going and doing some of your own homework, and you tell us, dig? There are physics-based reasons 'aside from coherence'. Some have already been mentioned...

....I fail to see now what advantage a professional laser projector has over a professional video projector for displaying bright graphics. ..

OK, the whole foundation of your argument in this thread is cracked to the core.. You've set up an argument like, 'which is better - a pick or an axe'? Different tools, different inherent-purposes, SOME 'overlap' here and there.. But, "better" is skewed far to the subjective, rather than being a 'blanket answer'.. If you're wanting to try and 'replace' a laser projector - for what it is / was designed to do - with a video pj, You will fail. And, "OK", perhaps not in every / all / certain, 'controlled-environment' circumstances, but, 'across the gamut' of what might be needed? Yes, sorry, but it's going to be fail... *Just like* if you were trying / expecting to use a laser-projector to 'blanket replace' a video-pj, to do 'both jobs' = Fail. I will be happy to supply 'proof' in the form of pictures.. ie:

...I still fail to see the advantages of laser projectors for most graphics shows. ..after I saw what some video projectors can do I'm left to wonder if they are so different...

..And, if you're always planning on 'coloring in the lines', (metaphor for: 'controlled, ideal-environment' for simulating laser-graphics with a video pj..) you can probably fool yourself / an inastute audience into believing they're not all-that, BUT...

..Here's my 'challenge' to you.. And, this is not me trying to be a prick - it's an 'object lesson'.. I want to see you recreate the following pictures with your video PJ.. (..and, I will leave out all the the '(video) can't touch dis'-shots of projections on mountains, tree-banks, never-the-same-twice / stunningly-enrapturing lumia, etc, etc ..) ...And, no, you don't have to 'recreate the exact-environment' (ie: F-4 Phantoms in the background, etc. ..just the 'ambience', and / or 'net result', visually..

Attachment 44499 Attachment 44500 Attachment 44501 Attachment 44502 (..Visually-arresting intensity, in very-high ambience..)
..oh yeah, that last one was a 'bit of a long-throw', too.. Attachment 44503

Attachment 44504 Attachment 44505 Attachment 44506 Attachment 44507 (..Zero 'depth of field' issues / Ability to adapt to 'uneven' surfaces, IF the need should arise, ie: Attachment 44508

Attachment 44509 Attachment 44510 Attachment 44511 Attachment 44512 (..that 'Neon-pop', and unparalleled color-saturation, that only true Laser-graphics can deliver..)

..Oh yeah, and..

Attachment 44513 Attachment 44514 ..'Bonus-Aerials' when shot RP - and, that's: 'bonus-aerials' after being shot thru a scrim - even when in 'less than ideal' (pitch-black..) ambience.. (..Sorry about the Green-machita in the one shot.. just ignore that part.. )

PS - The nice lumia-werk on the 'tower' in the background of that last UM-shot, is the work of Sir M. Gould, aka our own 'clickamouse'.. just for clarity..

I'm not asking if laser projectors are going to be replaced. I'm asking if you can use video projector to get the same effect as a laser projector for graphics shows (i.e replace your laser projector with a video projector for a graphics show).

..In short, UNLESS you're using one of these: http://www.laserist.org/Laserist/tech_tips_3.html (..or, it's earlier predecessor, the 'Linden' series.. http://www.laservideo.com/gallery.htm Tip: back-up to the root-site, and you can read more about it..) ..the 'practical answer' (..not subjective, but real-world practical..) - for anything outside of satisfying your own artistic-pleasures in your cave-black den / bedroom, etc, is - No. *Certainly* not going to be a solution for commercial laser-graphics projection...

..I mean, I'd sure hate to get the call from a Client, asking for this:

Attachment 44515 ..and have to say '..Oooh, ummm, well... I have some video projektorz??' ..But, as you said, since yer not 'doin such', well, if you feel that you'll just never, ever-ever have the need to do anything like any of the shots, above, well.. 'May the video-wind be at yer back', friend.. However..

...Like I said before, "Some people here are claiming graphics shows projected by lasers can't be replaced with the same show converted to bitmaps and projected by video projectors and look good.". ...I'm asking to give reasons and prove me wrong...

..Sorry, but since you disagree with the already-given testimony, in this thread, from people that have done both for 10-15+ years, the ownice is really on *you* to 'prove otherwise'....Like I've 'challenged' above.. Show me equally-impressive / as-wide-a-gamut of application, simmed-laser graphics shots - produced by video, alone, and you may have half a point. Otherwise, sorry but imo, yer just being a Trolli,dude..

ciao..
j

[m0f]

It comes down to a personal choice. Myself laser graphics and animations don't do much for me, but I absolutely love a good abstract show. It just looks different coming out of a video projector, just as laser projected raster graphics look different from the standard vector graphics. There is something about the saturation and purity of colours out of a good laser projector and excitement to vector style scanned graphics that can't be matched by any type of video (raster) device.

That being said, modern video projectors are much nicer at the consumer level than those of the past. Specs that used to cost a fortune are now in the hands of the consumer. The fancy commercial gear is even nicer, and I've personally seen up to 40K lumen barco and christie projectors in use up close. But even then, they just have a different appeal. To me it's no more exciting than watching a TV, sure some tv's are nicer than others, but in the end they are still a tv and all have a similar characteristic derived from the raster style of display. Sure some content is more exciting to watch than others, it still feels like I'm watching tv. One possible exception is 3d projection mapping when properly implemented.

It sounds like for your artwork or desires, raster may simply be a more suitable medium. For myself, there's just something about a vector scanned laser show that can't be mimicked. What's better than asking and arguing online, is to experiment, build content for both and narrow down your preference.

Commercially, video projections are more popular than laser graphics I think mainly due to the level of complexity that it allows for. However there are still some cases where a laser projector is the only viable option as has been detailed over the previous pages of this thread. It's always been this way, so it's no different than it was in the past, and likely will always be this way.

[White-Light]

That would be nice......

@Al, This could be a result of the camera but the discrete colors withing the projected lines look somewhat mottled too. I get that some of the fans are meant to be blended but that ones that aren't don't look sharp. Laser doesn't do that. Sharp defined colors with no blending.

Absolutely. You can't get nice sharp lines without coherence - I also hadn't noticed the colour bleed myself, that is a nice spot. The colour bleed of green into white is very marked.

First, thanks for the video. Might you also remember what projector was used for testing?

Don't know about that video but Bill tested pretty much all of the video projectors below something like $10K and the best for this purpose was the Epson Powerlite 5030UB: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...ema_5030UB.htm

What's important is not the brightness but the contrast. Without a high contrast blacks appear grey when using it for emulaser.

The fact that lines looked bright although are also thin though and that Bill said "they're trying to find ways around the poor brightness" kind of implies his software doesn't do much post-processing of the generated raster frame and as I've said already like that it will look like shit.

1. It's not a raster frame

2. You can't process for brightness, as said before project a small narrow beam and you only use a small number of pixels from the projector and with projectors only the pixels that are in use are lit so the smaller the projection the dimmer the brightness.

3. The lines don't look bright. This is the lines from my 2.1w Kvant with the camera in a similar position. Compare that to the beams in the video above:

[flecom]

I prefer CRT projectors

[m0f]

The video emulated the feel of a 500 mW projector. How about posting an image of a 500mW projector instead of 2000?

So to paraphrase, the average video projector can't even match a 2W laser for brightness ? Most lasers used for shows are far more than 2W, so one can say that brightness is one aspect where lasers excel. However video projectors have their benefits in terms of complexity of content.

In the end they are a different art form, a different medium. You're trying to compare apples with oranges.

[m0f]

What does a $100,000 40K lumen Christie projector compare to laser wise ? 5W ? 10W ? What kind of laser could I build / buy for $100,000

[m0f]

Of course the spot on the wall are brighter than mid-air beams, regardless of the fog / atmosphere used. My 10W's are blindingly bright when projected on a wall in small space such as my living room. But that brightness translates to being able to project onto darker and / or non traditional projection surfaces, which is an area where lasers excel.

Regarding statistics I can only go from personal experience in the business of laser rentals and shows, and also local laser rental businesses. Putting aside the plethora of stepper motor based laser toys / american dj type stuff, which is really an entire different category altogether. There just isn't much call for 1-2W lasers anymore. Here's what I find to be the average power of lasers typically requested / needed for shows nowadays :

For graphics :
Indoor, low light 3W
Indoor in well lit room or outdoor 5-10W+

Beams :
Night club 3-5W
Theatre 10W
Arena concert w/ big lighting 10-20W+

As has been said so many times though, lasers will have the lead in the purity and intensity of colours. Video allows for far more complex art work, but is essentially like watching tv. Lasers have a certain hard to describe characteristic that can't be emulated by a video projector, so there will always be some demand for laser type graphics.

Two different mediums, apples and oranges. Why limit yourself to one ? Combinations of the two can make for some very interesting shows.

If you must choose one, look deep into yourself. What do you prefer ? If the laser medium doesn't pull you into the beauty of the art form, then go with video. Laser is not for everyone, just look at how many VJ's there are out there, it's a medium that pulls many people in, myself not. Sure some of the effects are neat, but it just doesn't have the attraction of laser to me.

At some point in the future you may find the need to project a very long distance, or logo onto a building in daylight, which at that point you'll know to look into laser as the best way to accomplish it.

You're on a laser forum, arguing with a bunch of laser addicts, people who are captivated by the beauty of lasers, what's the point of that ? If you must choose one, then it's a decision for you to personally make, we can't make it for you. I know what I'd choose, but then again that's why I'm on a laser forum and not a video forum..

[White-Light]

Not true. Both are important.

Not according to BB.

Nearly every video projector has reasonable enough brightness however 99% fail on contrast ratios as you don't get true blacks between the projected frames. Remember beam shows aren't a usual video application and require unique characteristics to be able to pull off the illusion well. The ability to produce true blacks is one of them.

Anything has to be rasterized before being sent to the screen or video projector, it's a raster frame. And not properly processed to me. Bill at least says they are trying to find ways to make it look better, which implies there's some processing that can and should be done.

You may have me there as I wouldn't know. I just know it doesn't start off life as a raster frame but as a cue. What happens internally before it's sent out to the projector, I wouldn't know.

Talking about graphics: if you use more than one pixel and add some glow along the pixels of the beam spot you add brightness. Talking about beams: you can use more pixels for a single point to add brightness, does it make the beam fatter? Yes.

You still can't get over the fact that most of the pixels are switched off = most of the brightness. A laser is always 100% bright no matter what it's drawing unless it's deliberately modulated to be dimmer.

You can see some lines which are more than 1 pixel wide and with glow filter applied in this video:


..that's not even a fraction of the brightness of even 2 watts of laser.

I can't even photograph it on a wall from 10 feet away without doing all sorts of tricks to the camera because the brightness overwhelms the sensor and causes exposure issues.

The only thing that video can do that laser can't is fill in between the drawn lines. But that's why they're different tools.

Laser is for beams and outline graphics.

Video is suited to highly complex and detailed in-filled graphics / video scenes as in your video.

or this (1:04):


..As above.

The video I think was a 2800 lumen video projector emulating the feel of a 500 mW projector. How about posting an image of a 500mW projector instead of >2000?

Maybe because I don't have one and who would use a 500mw projector for a beam show anyway? Probably a home user.

What does a $100,000 40K lumen Christie projector compare to laser wise ? 5W ? 10W ? What kind of laser could I build / buy for $100,000

Exactly, and most video mapping is done using not one, but 3 or 4 projectors working together to increase the brightness.

[absolom7691]

Two different mediums, apples and oranges. Why limit yourself to one ? Combinations of the two can make for some very interesting shows.

Yep. And no one does it better than the good ole Disney Imagineers:
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...quid-on-lasers

And, I can spot the lasers easily. They are more brilliant and concise. Cool show but what else can you expect out of Disney?