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Thread: Pangolin is slow at service

  1. #11
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    Yeah sorry guys but give them some time to check it all
    They asked me to do this and I respect that.

    Also my modified one was for BEYOND and not quickshow but it would be easy to adapt it to QS
    Last edited by masterpj; 08-30-2014 at 06:44.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasever View Post
    Hello experts at laser shows,

    We had a problem at the Quick show. I sent Pangolin email and post on their website on Monday. They only replied, "Could you take a couple of pictures" I sent videos and no answer till today. 5 days.

    k
    I am using FB3QS. When I scan dots on wall, I find that there is a dash after every dot when scanning rate is more than 17Khz ppt. I check the output of the quick show using an oscilliscope and find there is 5us coming-on and shuting-off delay at every signal pulse. I think that is the reason. When the scanning ratio is lower than 17K
    , the dash after dot is not evident. Higher than 17K, there is dash, I can change the transfer point between 1 to 10, the dash can change from behind to both ends to before, but not removed.

    Do you have experiences of this problem. Would someone help me to solve it? How should I set the QS?

    Thanks in advance.

    David
    I'm not at all familiar with QS, but wouldn't this issue be solved by simply adjusting blanking delay? How about posting a pic of the ILDA test pattern, we'd know for sure if that was the issue.

  3. #13
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    In this case it's not blanking delay.

    There's something in certain cue properties that appears to be influencing the output.

    All you can do with the blanking delay is shift the tails forwards or backwards. You cannot make them disappear.

    I unfairly blamed Kvant for this for a while until others pointed out that this had happened for a long time in other software as well as Beyond / QS. Feel guilty now as maybe my projector review all that time ago would have been more positive if it wasn't for this (it wasn't negative, just not as glowing as it might have been).

  4. #14
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    Hi David,

    Aaron looked into this. He tried all of our projectors at Pangolin. He told me "I sort of saw it on one of our projectors".

    Aaron has been trying to get with me to look at this situation, but our schedules have been off. I've mostly been working at night, trying to get real engineering done. Aaron works during the day.

    Of course with support, it's best when the situation is "I absolutely see it on all of our test projectors" rather than "I sort of see it on one of our test projectors".

    We keep a whole variety of projectors in stock now, including the original PuFeng projector with 10K scanners which I used to generate and then verify the QS workspace. Every cue we distribute looked acceptably well on this cheap projector -- but only when the scan rate was actually set to 10K, as the projector had 10K scanners.

    Once Aaron and I can get together and I can take a look at this specific situation, I can render a conclusion as to whether we want to make a change in QS software, our default workspace, or simply make a recommendation that you yourself modify a few cues or settings. But this will take some analysis -- not just a quick conclusion, and this analysis takes time.

    Therefore "slowness of Pangolin support" in this case is warranted. But if you want a quick answer, then you have plenty of them above. "It's your scanners".

    By the way, this is one of the reasons why we are getting into the scanner business. We're trying to raise everyone to an industry-standard level and hopefully one day eliminate the 10K and 20K scanners out there (as we're offering 30K scanners for 10K scanner prices -- in large quantities of course )

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradfo69 View Post
    I have a similar situation with the Pluto projectors from Lightspace that a lot of members here have aquired in the last year.
    Brad, is there any way that you (or another PL member) can get one of those projectors sent to us? At this past SELEM, I heard the name "Pluto" but don't really know more about it. Aaron can only "sort of see it with one of our projectors" but nowhere near to the extent that David showed in his picture above. If we had a projector that definitively showed this problem, then we can render a better conclusion.

    Off the top of my head, I THINK that the low frequency damping is set incorrectly, and that the scanners are kind of slowly coming to a stop (rather than quickly coming to a stop). Kvant scanners did that a long time ago but that problem was solved when they switched to our scanners...

    Bill
    Last edited by Pangolin; 08-31-2014 at 02:26.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Brad, is there any way that you (or another PL member) can get one of those projectors sent to us? At this past SELEM, I heard the name "Pluto" but don't really know more about it. Aaron can only "sort of see it with one of our projectors" but nowhere near to the extent that David showed in his picture above. If we had a projector that definitively showed this problem, then we can render a better conclusion.

    Off the top of my head, I THINK that the low frequency damping is set incorrectly, and that the scanners are kind of slowly coming to a stop (rather than quickly coming to a stop). Kvant scanners did that a long time ago but that problem was solved when they switched to our scanners...

    Bill
    Yes Bill, either I can ship you one or, I think perhaps there is/are members close to Orlando that might be able to drop one off. I'll see if I can confirm that. I have 7 Plutos (imagine that! - 9 if you count 2 single color greens ) and 7 have the Phenix Technology PT-40k scanners and two have the new PT-A40 scanners. I know the issue occurs with the boxes that contain the PT-40's and I'm reasonably certain it does it with the PT-A40's as well although I haven't confirmed it as I've only just received those two and am clearing up a couple small warranty repair issues that may have occurred during shipping.
    Last edited by Bradfo69; 08-31-2014 at 03:07.

  6. #16
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    By the way, this is one of the reasons why we are getting into the scanner business. We're trying to raise everyone to an industry-standard level and hopefully one day eliminate the 10K and 20K scanners out there (as we're offering 30K scanners for 10K scanner prices -- in large quantities of course )

    Therefore "slowness of Pangolin support" in this case is warranted. But if you want a quick answer, then you have plenty of them above. "It's your scanners".

    Off the top of my head, I THINK that the low frequency damping is set incorrectly, and that the scanners are kind of slowly coming to a stop (rather than quickly coming to a stop). Kvant scanners did that a long time ago but that problem was solved when they switched to our scanners...


    Funny, all this quotes above are exactly matching with what i said in june this year regarding why pangolin is moving towards the scannermarket:


    1: Money, because every chinese box will have Pangolin scanners in them just like now every chinese box comes with an FB3
    2: If a customer has problems with their scanners and the customer don,t use pangolin they can say its the software that is causing the problem so buy Pangolin
    3: Saving time and there for money on all the questions they get with their software not working properly and in the end it turns out to be faulty scanners.
    4: If a customer has problems with software and the customer don,t use pangolin scanner they can say its the scanners so they should buy scannermax.
    5: Control of the market, who has the chinese market both on scanners and software is the winner, quickshow has proven that in the past.


    Copied from post nr 61 in scannermax 506 : http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...max-506s/page3

    In a nutshell: oh you have problems but you use our quickshow and not our scanners? Then its clearly your scanners. If a customer has 506 scanners but not using pangolin then nr 2 can be applied.

    So the future will be that every chinabox will have 506 scanners and a quickshow package with 30K becoming the standard. Its easy to predict the next step aswell: When the complete china scannermarket is taken over then pangolin can make the scanners only to work with pangolin leaving the customer and manufactures no choice other then using pangolin software just like we see with Apple. This will mean "others" like fiesta from showtacle can,t be used unless showtacle pays sort of license fee to work with their scanners. Prices will go up slowly and they can make a fortune just like Apple does.

    Helping the market to cheaper and better scanners, yeah right......smart move that i must admit


    Although i have some critical notes adressed to pangolin one thing is for sure: There service in speed aswell as their knowledge is excellent. In this case lasever could be a bit more patient. However reading between the lines i don,t think lasever has 10K scanners and its to easy to say : buy "our"scanners then your problem will be solved.........
    Last edited by edison; 08-31-2014 at 04:01.


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  7. #17
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    That scanners only working with pangolin makes little sense.
    My guesses is while analog will always stay there will be an additional standard regarding the use of driving scanners utilising a DSP scanner amplifier so that developers can implement it in both future DACs and software (as conversion from digital to analog then analog to digital again comes with a lot of tradeoffs and extra cost!

    No that license fee will not happen.... I'm not involved in that but it seriously wouldn't make sense either. It cripples development and they are also dependant of innovations by others using their technologies and they still heavily promote that. Justin seems to be on a sort of holiday so this might be a reason for your slower responses.

    I will sit down tuesday to make you a changed workspace for QuickShow that just works laserver.
    Can't do it earlier as I have my education and work to finish right now.
    I will send it to you personaly and you can evaluate it and let me know about the results (do save your workspace before loading in a new one). I will also send the QuickShow workspace to pangolin so if it indeed works they can spread it around as an hotfix to people who have these issues.

    Development Is still going on software wise but its hard to swap attention back and forth.. Pangolin is a company with a lot of money but few employees for its market scale. This is good in a sense there is order and structure and to be very honest it shouldn't have too many employees.. many employees means miscommunications and mistakes.. I know they are still heavily developing their products as I'm involved every now and then.
    Last edited by masterpj; 08-31-2014 at 07:26.

  8. #18
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    We endeavor to have our software work on all projectors. That's why it is me, personally, who spends so much time doing final tweaks on all work spaces, and why we have so many projectors at Pangolin to test. We want the out of the box experience for all users to be pleasant.

    A simple and quick response of "It's your scanners" would never play well with clients. This is not good customer service! This is why I didn't reply with such a quick response to David. (Although my response contained this -- referencing the statement of others, my response is more elaborate, and in fact we're still looking into this...) I suspect that the problem is incorrectly adjusted scanner amps, but I am not sure. Even once I am sure, we will invest time to see how this can be addressed in a global fashion since Brad (just as one example) has several projectors that demonstrate this problem.

    Pangolin was established (and established by two guys who started out just like many on PL, as hobbyists) to serve the industry. Some of the ways in which we serve is by spreading information. This is why there is so much information on our web site. We also serve by helping others with their technology. Boards that DZ and Stanwax make are based on our technology and the articles on our web site, with zero dollars flowing back to Pangolin. In fact, we invest time (and thus money) helping these guys and many others too. So Edison, it's not all about money and control as you always seem to think!

    Regarding scanners, if there is a way that we can help elevate the entire industry by producing a product, then that's what we do. Most of what we do is completely unique and unavailable elsewhere at any price. And yet the prices we charge should help to demonstrate that our goal is service to the industry, not making a profit! We believe by helping other people, surely the profit will be there, not the other way around...

    Bill

  9. #19
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    Bill,

    Just to confirm, if it helps, Kvant LM scanners are affected.

    Here's the output from mine with one of the affected cues (photo taken some time ago, but nothing has been changed):

    Altering the blanking setting in the Projector Settings in the software just shifts the lines either more forward or backward from the dots but doesn't do anything to eliminate it.


  10. #20
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    Pangolin was established (and established by two guys who started out just like many on PL, as hobbyists) to serve the industry. Some of the ways in which we serve is by spreading information. This is why there is so much information on our web site. We also serve by helping others with their technology. Boards that DZ and Stanwax make are based on our technology and the articles on our web site, with zero dollars flowing back to Pangolin. In fact, we invest time (and thus money) helping these guys and many others too. So Edison, it's not all about money and control as you always seem to think!
    Again your using words like serving, helping and presenting yourself as some kind of hobbyist that putts up a smoke screen to cover his second intensions I,m not saying that your intentions are bad its just how you present yourself. Your not a hobbyist anymore but a bussinessman with a suit that is willing to help people since it always helps you in some way to expand your bussiness. Many people here are willing to help fellow laserists in anyway. There is nothing wrong with helping someone and admit that you kind of hope that he will buy more products from you in the end or become a longlife customer.

    I always have been clear in what my intensions are or what my strategy is and i think many people would appreciate it when your being more transparant. Tom kamaras, Dirk baur or others where all hobbiest in the beginning and you don,t see them presenting themselves as the "helpers" of the industry. My main goal (and i,m sure theirs too) is to pay the morgage, enjoy what i,m doing and i,m not doing it just to help people to better modules. I never met a painter that developed a better quality paint and shared it with his competitors to "help" the market. In reallity the painter will sell his "improved" paint to others to make money instead. Maybe you call that "helping" but in my opinion its just plane bussiness.

    Just a minor difference maybe to some people but i like to keep things "real"


    But lets go back to the subject of this thread. We see more people having problems with each using a different brand of scanners but all use the same software.......

    Mmm, could it be some kind of bug in the software......?;
    Last edited by edison; 08-31-2014 at 14:13.


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