Phenix PT-A10 scanners

[Pangolin]

Hi guys,

A client had sent me a pair of these Phenix PT-A10 scanners for review. Keep in mind that I'm the president of a company that is a competitor to the company that made these scanners, and so I guess that means that you should take what I am saying with a grain of salt. With that having been said, what I present here should not be very controversial and the tests and results should be easily duplicated by others...

These scanners had been discussed a few other places here on the forum insomuch as them *appearing* to be very interesting according to advertisements.

I'm pretty sure that the web site advertises them as being able to scan 10mm laser beams, but in our analysis, the reality is that a 10mm beam really will not even fit onto the Y mirror in its nominal position (it skates off just a little bit). According to Solid Works, the mirror set is really made for an 8.5mm beam projected through a 30 degree optical angle. I have posted a few pictures below:

10mm beam at nominal position, barely fitting on Y mirror.



8.5mm beam projecting upward and rightward 15 degrees in each direction (30 degrees optical peak to peak)


I made a video showing the scanners, the amps, and the performance observed. I was pretty surprised by the slow speed of these scanners. Scan speed is only 12K at around 11 degrees for the ILDA test pattern. Rounding is pretty evident even at 12K.
http://youtu.be/gDrfg0WE9IA

I really expected more, since these scanners are physically pretty large.

Questions are welcome, but this is our busiest time of year, and so it is likely that I won't get to answer them immediately...

Bill

[csmn]

Ok nice Bill, can I buy a set 506 scanners with drivers and 12mm mirrors?

[edison]

Oh what convinient, the scanners from Phenix can,t do what is promised and here is Mr brenner to point that out........

Funny that Mr brenner feels the need to slap Phenix on the wrist or point out that the scanners are not do what they are promised. Maybe should look in your own backyard for a change. One of your biggest customers (if not the biggest) is selling Projectors below specs for years leaving thousends of customers disappointed and paying to much.

But that is of course is acceptable since Pangolin sells a shitload of products throught them and getting richer every day.Not a bad word or review about them from you as long as they buy your products.

Since your always promoting that you are here to "help" the laserindustry maybe you should start in your own backyard by making laserworld selling their projectors up till specs. At least that would "help" everyone.


Nice review bill, i agree that the product should meet the specs but this review stinks if you ask me........

[Omar]

Hi Bill,

Wao, you are always generous to spend your precious time on Phenixtechnology scanners(even your busiest time of year), can we understand that Phenixtechnology is so important to you?

However, do you know that PT-A10 has been updated for many times already to the market?

According to stage laser projector/ilda standard, PT-A10 with 16mm mirror reaches 18kpps @ 44degree, with 18mm mirror reaches 14kpps @ 40degree.
They are hot sell in industry market.

Bill, please don't be hesitated to contacting Phenixtechnology to get a copy of LATEST information of scanners, and I think they will be generous enough to send you sample for your "review", then you don't need to ask others and get the wrong/old information to waste time.

Omar

[carlos3621]

Untill the 506's are available as a complete kit for sale, this is a moot point!

I think they will sell alot when they do go on sale though

as a side note though:
Bill, when will you be offering a complete 506 system for sale? (including pre-tuned amps)?????

ill be first in line!

[Pangolin]

Omar,

First, I already pointed out that I am the president of a competitor company. I wanted to make this point abundantly clear. BUT, one thing that I don't think is so abundantly clear is the Phenix is actually a division of the company you work for! So if any reader believes that I am biased, the same reader should also believe that you are biased! Thus, the only way readers of this post can be convinced -- one way or another, is to look for more evidence than just our words in a forum post. That evidence could come from a third party doing their own tests. Or that evidence may come from further videos.

But to enlighten you as to the vintage of the scanners, the scanners we received *were* the new ones -- just about a week off of their factory floor!

Also, the mirrors we received *were* nearly 16mm wide as you showed in your picture. BUT, just because a Y mirror is 16mm wide, doesn't mean that the mirror will reflect a 16mm beam! Remember that -- especially since Phenix uses a simple orthogonal mount, the secant of the angle-of-incidence creates a foreshortening effect which reduces the diameter of a beam that fits on it! That's why it is necessary to use a computer to figure out exactly what size beam will fit on the mirror, and projected over exactly which range of angles. We're not making this stuff up!

And Omar, physics alone would prevent these scanners or any large scanner from doing what you are saying that they do. 18K at 44 degrees? Not using the ILDA test pattern as it is intended to be used! 18K at 44 degrees is about what the best Cambridge scanners can do with tiny mirrors!

In any event -- as I wrote in my original post, it should be easy for anybody to duplicate my findings. My point is -- if you or anyone else believes you are achieving a different level of performance, the only thing you need to do is make a video showing what you're talking about! I made my video and showed what I observed "out of the box", now it's your turn or someone else's turn!

Talk is cheap. Really cheap! To post on the forum costs literally nothing. Actually *demonstrating* performance is an entirely different matter. And "doing the math" or running computer simulations also often shows a completely different story than what is advertised...

Untill the 506's are available as a complete kit for sale, this is a moot point!

Actually I don't think it is. The point of this thread is NOT to sell 506 scanners. It was only to review the PT-A10 scanners since there were a few folks who showed interest, but nobody who had actually obtained a pair as far as I know. So a client who just obtained a pair recently sent me theirs to check out. I don't mean to "advertise" the C506 and the only point of my comparison was to show that the performance of the PT-A10 was disappointing. Completely setting the C506 aside, I honestly expected more!

Bill

[Omar]

Bill, please ask that customer to order a newer version and send to you, then you can check it out yourselves, and yes, talk is cheap, seeing is believing!

Everybody knows that kind of scanners(lower speed)are used in industry products but not stage laser projectors, if the customers who REALLY like to buy, surely they will find out themselves:the product is suitable or not?

If not, why keep buying?

I am not as PROFESSIONAL as you on technical datas(as well as skills in doing REVIEWS on others), but we believe in customers' judgement.

bye~

[masterpj]

Funny that Mr brenner feels the need to slap Phenix on the wrist or point out that the scanners are not do what they are promised. Maybe should look in your own backyard for a change. One of your biggest customers (if not the biggest) is selling Projectors below specs for years leaving thousends of customers disappointed and paying to much.

But that is of course is acceptable since Pangolin sells a shitload of products throught them and getting richer every day.Not a bad word or review about them from you as long as they buy your products.

Since your always promoting that you are here to "help" the laserindustry maybe you should start in your own backyard by making laserworld selling their projectors up till specs. At least that would "help" everyone.

Pangolin doesn't sell modules nor full built projectors so why would they really?

I don't think this is bills responsibility.. the product range he delivers is what his focus is on and those are good..The fault is with LaserWorld here.. (I believe that's the one you are implying).
Aside from it he did state his opinion to be taken with a grain of salt as he is considered to be a competitor but still supports his claims with images rather then just text.
They help the industry in a sense that they sponsor/support a lot of creators to participate in the industry and also share knowledge and they are pushing forward the industry by investing money into scanner development (and off course they gain from it too.. they are a business not a charity).
The 506 scanners are really good value.. Edison have you tried them yourself?.. I would contact mixedgas and try them.. you are missing out.

Edison you make amazing modules, why not benefit from this new range of scanners rather then making a bad relationship with the company that could be off use to you? Did some bad cooperation occur or is this some after shock from the whole EyeMagic thread?

@Omar you should lend Bill that new version.. the PR would be beneficial if your claims are true really.

[Pangolin]

The fault is with LaserWorld here.. (I believe that's the one you are implying).

Thanks Pieter. And honestly I'm not so sure that "the fault is with LaserWorld" insomuch that Edison has made unsubstantiated claims. Edison claims, or at least implies that LaserWorld exaggerates specs. Five years ago I remember seeing a rash of YouTube videos and also disappointed people here on Photon Lexicon. But I haven't seen such things over the past few years. Moreover, over the past few years we've seen real professional show producers using their gear. My impression is that LaserWorld has really done a lot of work in improving their products and clarifying their specs.

But once again, seeing is believing! If Edison has evidence that LaserWorld products aren't what they say they are, then Edison can make a video showing what happens! That would be more convincing than just words on a forum...

Bill

[masterpj]

Thanks Pieter. And honestly I'm not so sure that "the fault is with LaserWorld" insomuch that Edison has made unsubstantiated claims. Edison claims, or at least implies that LaserWorld exaggerates specs. Five years ago I remember seeing a rash of YouTube videos and also disappointed people here on Photon Lexicon. But I haven't seen such things over the past few years. Moreover, over the past few years we've seen real professional show producers using their gear. My impression is that LaserWorld has really done a lot of work in improving their products and clarifying their specs.

But once again, seeing is believing! If Edison has evidence that LaserWorld products aren't what they say they are, then Edison can make a video showing what happens! That would be more convincing than just words on a forum...

Bill

The big problems are with the CS RGB series projectors from laserworld bill and indeed the more extreme cases of fake listings ones were most of the older range products...I haven't seen the issues for a while but I'm sure some will still be there.
Apparently the scanners from the laserworld CS projector range are the worst Chinese galvos you can possibly get on top of bad tuning at the moment. The bearings are so bad that you can move the shaft to the sides with your finger and this the exact review I had gotten from dnstje on the forums here.

I do understand why you are reviewing scanners.. you made a product that you spend a lot of time, sweat and money on during the course of development.
Then you try to advertise the quality of your products but the false claims make the distribution harder to the less knowledgeable ones but most importantly it's annoying.. I don't think you need to "sell" your product through the forums as the quality and feedback does that for you.

Edison imagine if you made a module that had 0.8mrad divergence and someone would sell cheaper modules with the same listed or a lower divergence but it actually is false or specifications are left out to make it seem better.. it would mostly be something that would tick you off, especially if you are enthusiastic and proud of the product you manufacture..