Ilda Digital Network (IDN)

[colouredmirrorball]

Thanks for chiming in and adding some history. I think IDN is a fantastic idea and am glad to hear that the other parts of that I asked about earlier are eventually coming. I am a developer of small independent laser show software package called Spaghetti. If it helps the cause at all, I would certainly assist in becoming an earlier adopter of the standard, whether finalized or not. Feel free to reach out to me at support@hingednewt.com or even a PM through this forum if interested.

That is the spirit we need. If the naysayers find themselves suddenly missing out on a lot of awesome products they'll hopefully realize the added value of IDN...

I'm currently taking care of developers individually - so please contact me in case you're interested.

PM incoming

[ekeefe]

Hello,

Thank you for discussing IDN here on PL.

I am interested in licensing the FPGA and related information regarding IDN from you. What are the terms of the license you offer? What does EUR 100 provide?

Partial disclosure (Full disclosure can be discussed), I have designed Time-Domain Multiplexer systems (or Time-Division Multiplexers if you prefer) in the past and IDN sounds like a TDM to Ethernet interface to me.

I am interested in how scalable and extensible the IDN protocol is designed to be.

I am willing and able to design and build my own PCBs, and would welcome the chance to do so. Where can the design files be found or are they only available with a license?

Not sure if it is important or not, but I am an ILDA member.

Please feel free to PM me if you prefer to discuss this privately.

ED

[masterpj]

It's EUR 349 for the ADC and EUR 299 for the DAC.
Most of this is manufacturing. You can do your own ADC/DAC boards and use the CPU or even do this yourself. I'm fine with EUR 100.- for the FPGA configuration and firmware license on both sides. In case you have serious suggestions on how to lower prices I'd be happy to talk to you - you should consider the whole system though. It's not just the mentioned components (and - well - it's times two - two ends...).

Hi I might have a few ideas to bring your cost down DRAMATICALLY.
How many layers is this PCB you are manufacturing?
The cost of your FPGA might also be high.. The ADC's and DAC's are they 16 bit? 12bit? and how many channels?

[DexLogic]

I am interested in licensing the FPGA and related information regarding IDN from you. What are the terms of the license you offer? What does EUR 100 provide?

Partial disclosure (Full disclosure can be discussed), I have designed Time-Domain Multiplexer systems (or Time-Division Multiplexers if you prefer) in the past and IDN sounds like a TDM to Ethernet interface to me.

I am interested in how scalable and extensible the IDN protocol is designed to be.

I am willing and able to design and build my own PCBs, and would welcome the chance to do so. Where can the design files be found or are they only available with a license?

Not sure if it is important or not, but I am an ILDA member.

Please feel free to PM me if you prefer to discuss this privately.

I am providing several stages of implementation:
- The end user product, pocket size IDN/ISP converters
- The OEM product, tiny converters to go into projectors (DAC) or FOH-Cases where legacy systems sit (ADC)
- The MetaMorph CPU board to be used with custom ADC or DAC hardware
- The platform bundle (firmware and FPGA configuration) to be used with custom hardware that includes the FPGA

Alternatively (since the hardware interface is / will be documented), custom firmware can be used on the architecture, either implementing the whole design or using the FPGA configuration. Interfaces at this level (in case someone likes to use the FPGA configuration / CPU but do own firmware) are not yet available though.

The use of the FPGA pins (and CPU socket connector pins) is on my website - well - it's not yet complete. As soon as there is demand, I'll finish this. Just a matter of workload :-)

The EUR 100.- provide the platform license (firmware and FPGA configuration - well - the .zip bundle on my website - StageCore1) for either a ADC or a DAC of the feature set of StageMate ISP or StageFeed ISP. Both are approximately same regarding the complexity (ADC a bit more regarding the networking and DAC a bit more regarding the recovery of the timing). In case of reduced or enhanced features (for example just one DAC engine) the cost can change.

Hmmm - I don't know of what would have to be disclosed. I try to do open interfaces where they are needed.

Scalability of IDN:
Well - it is not infinite but reasonable. It is designed to cover audio and video, UART, MIDI etc. on content side and by being decoupled from the transport can be used in many ways including storage in files. The only "limitation" is the 64 channels (simultaneously) in one session/link (this would apply to files as well). In case more would be needed, multiple sessions (or regions in a file) would have to be used. I rated this less important since systems that need this amount of channels are likely to be very complex - and then - the added complexity regarding IDN should be acceptable.

PCB:
Would you want to develop your own PCB's or manufacturer my design (just PCB/assembly/BOM or including schematics)?
First is up to you (documentation regarding the hardware interface is / will be on my website). Second would involve a license (not yet determined)

[DexLogic]

Hi I might have a few ideas to bring your cost down DRAMATICALLY.
How many layers is this PCB you are manufacturing?
The cost of your FPGA might also be high.. with ADC's and DAC's are they 16 bit? 12bit? and how many channels?

The CPU-PCB is 6 Layer and the converter PCB is 4-Layer.
I designed the converters with size and cost in mind (so I'd doubt the stressed "dramatically").
X, Y and U4 converters (ADC and DAC) are 16 Bit and Intensity, R, G, B, U1, U2 and U3 converters (ADC and DAC) are 12 Bit.
The FPGA is "expensive" (about EUR 18.-) but really makes a good job.

There are cheaper solutions out there - but they may be limited in their set of features. My constraints were size and cost (in that order) at a high level of quality such that it can keep up with demands of professionals - and can be used as a reference platform. For example, the FPGA (and the individually connected DACs) allows for shifting colors against position - and colors against colors) with a resolution of 250 ns...

[masterpj]

The CPU-PCB is 6 Layer and the converter PCB is 4-Layer.
I designed the converters with size and cost in mind (so I'd doubt the stressed "dramatically").
X, Y and U4 converters (ADC and DAC) are 16 Bit and Intensity, R, G, B, U1, U2 and U3 converters (ADC and DAC) are 12 Bit.
The FPGA is "expensive" (about EUR 18.-) but really makes a good job.

There are cheaper solutions out there - but they may be limited in their set of features. My constraints were size and cost (in that order) at a high level of quality such that it can keep up with demands of professionals - and can be used as a reference platform. For example, the FPGA (and the individually connected DACs) allows for shifting colors against position - and colors against colors) with a resolution of 250 ns...

Maybe consider this service?
http://smart-prototyping.com/PCB-Prototyping.html
Although 6 layers is expensive! I see why its costly.
I used this a few times in small quantity and the cost was very low and the PCB's were great and very consistent.

[DexLogic]

Maybe consider this service?
http://smart-prototyping.com/PCB-Prototyping.html
Although 6 layers is expensive! I see why its costly.
I used this a few times in small quantity and the cost was very low and the PCB's were great and very consistent.

Thanks :-)

The FPGA is a 256 ball BGA (1mm pitch). The escape pattern needs 0.2mm drills and the 6 layers are needed for signals and all power rails. Won't get away with less (same or worse with just about all FPGAs).

The PCB isn't too bad since I kept it very small (CPU about EUR 5.- and converter about 8.-) and went into quantities. Just my manufacturer doubled (well not exactly) the space to handle it on the machines... I'll have to optimize this with the next revision.

FPGA and converter could sit on the same PCB (save the connector) but then have less flexibility, more complex and larger PCB - and larger device - and case... May not pay off.

[flecom]

so it's an open standard... that costs 100 eur? and the dac+adc is going to set me back $600 for one set and I don't even have any software/dac to run it... so far FB4 is winning in my "should I care about this" race

and honestly I barely care about FB4... I work with networks all day (and night, and then some) so the last thing I want is ethernet in my lasers, but that's just me

[colouredmirrorball]

so it's an open standard... that costs 100 eur? and the dac+adc is going to set me back $600 for one set and I don't even have any software/dac to run it... so far FB4 is winning in my "should I care about this" race

and honestly I barely care about FB4... I work with networks all day (and night, and then some) so the last thing I want is ethernet in my lasers, but that's just me

1) The standard is open, the custom implementation is not.

2) This is not about FB4 vs IDN. That would be like FB3 vs Ilda cable. The FB3 uses the Ilda cable to work, you're nothing without it. Only has Pangolin decided to make the "FB3" uncompatible with the modern version of an "Ilda cable", estranging their whole user base from the many benefits that IDN compatible systems will have and making many projectors fundamentally uncompatible.

3) You don't need an ADC for IDN as your computer can send out ethernet signals directly. That's the whole point. An ADC is only required if "a" manufacturer decides to not support IDN (but their customers are usually used to spending lots of money anyway).

4) It is currently possible to make existing software compatible with IDN by using a modified driver. Including but not limited to LSX, LDS, Dynamics, LazyMame, ZoofPack, in short everything that uses an Easylase driver. In all fairness I haven't seen that driver myself yet but others can testify for it.

5) Not using network in the entertainment business was already frowned upon five years ago. How old is art-net again?

[DexLogic]

so it's an open standard... that costs 100 eur? and the dac+adc is going to set me back $600 for one set and I don't even have any software/dac to run it... so far FB4 is winning in my "should I care about this" race

and honestly I barely care about FB4... I work with networks all day (and night, and then some) so the last thing I want is ethernet in my lasers, but that's just me

The standard is open and you're free to do your own implementation.
And - You will have to use a DAC somewhere between your PC and the laser.
My ADC is just a possible migration path for legacy systems.

BTW: IDN is not limited to networks. It's built around messages that can be transported how ever and stored where ever you like.