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Thread: New laserist's safety checkng and bemusement (Pheonix)

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    Default New laserist's safety checkng and bemusement (Pheonix)

    Hi all I'm new

    I'm half-new to this - have played with laser modules on and off since I could work a screwdriver and done a fair job at understanding and misunderstanding what was going on at various points. Coming back to it as an adult to find the diodes and assemblies actually affordable is a joy and the chasing the haze-dragon too tempting

    So before getting all DIY I've taken the plunge with an RGB LIDA max 50 kpps 1.3W all analogue diode Netline - not here yet but best I can determine from here and trying to read foren it's respectable chinese parts and might actually output it's minimum rated 0.8W. It has a scanfail system, a key and interlock.

    The idea is to see whether I can safely do small shows just scraping that 3m clearance for the low hundreds of audience size involving audience scanning. I've learnt about luminous flux and MPEs and beam characteristics and the use of optics and scanfails and interlocks and not using the remaining good eye etc (though those got laser ablated on purpose by the pros) and I'd like to check if I've got those ideas right

    If I'm aiming for 10mW/cm2 then for ~1w my beam would need to be at least 12cm diam right? Which would need a +4 diopter correction to achieve at 3m? Assuming cheapo M5 beam characteristics as per that laser type

    My thinking was to use a +2 across the whole field and a +2 safetyscan to avoid a huge jump (or a full-frame +4 in my standard roof-height home where 3m height is a dream) is that about right?

    I will invest in a proper power meter if this does work out for public H&S documentation, but just want to experiment safely for myself for now. Any advice is hugely appreciated - it's scared me a little how easily I could have bought a 3-5w laser and set it on auto in the corner of the room while I'd want to learn to do that scale safely I feel many miles from it yet.

    Secondly though what's with the Phoenix 4 demo? I'm very interested in live control (if you've got to have a trained operator there why not?) so it's name keeps rearing up but the demo is a massive turn-off to spending hundreds of pounds when it shouts DEMO across all it's screens and has a persistent pop-up that crashes the whole thing out terminally if you're doing anything when it pops? Just completely disable the output interface on the whole product please Mr. Pangolin, I don't feel I am able to make a comparison between it and QS fairly

    That said QS seems to be winning for the atmospherics I'd like to focus on - delicate tendrils of light, subtle colour blends, fading to stretch the light out from a point and interpolation between effects is what I want so I have acres of headroom before getting to big beams for drama. Think this might mean starting with a blank slate. Any pointers also appreciated

  2. #2
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    does "phoenix" indication location or software?

    Quote Originally Posted by frostypaw View Post
    Hi all I'm new

    I'm half-new to this - have played with laser modules on and off since I could work a screwdriver and done a fair job at understanding and misunderstanding what was going on at various points. Coming back to it as an adult to find the diodes and assemblies actually affordable is a joy and the chasing the haze-dragon too tempting

    So before getting all DIY I've taken the plunge with an RGB LIDA max 50 kpps 1.3W all analogue diode Netline - not here yet but best I can determine from here and trying to read foren it's respectable chinese parts and might actually output it's minimum rated 0.8W. It has a scanfail system, a key and interlock.

    The idea is to see whether I can safely do small shows just scraping that 3m clearance for the low hundreds of audience size involving audience scanning. I've learnt about luminous flux and MPEs and beam characteristics and the use of optics and scanfails and interlocks and not using the remaining good eye etc (though those got laser ablated on purpose by the pros) and I'd like to check if I've got those ideas right

    If I'm aiming for 10mW/cm2 then for ~1w my beam would need to be at least 12cm diam right? Which would need a +4 diopter correction to achieve at 3m? Assuming cheapo M5 beam characteristics as per that laser type

    My thinking was to use a +2 across the whole field and a +2 safetyscan to avoid a huge jump (or a full-frame +4 in my standard roof-height home where 3m height is a dream) is that about right?

    I will invest in a proper power meter if this does work out for public H&S documentation, but just want to experiment safely for myself for now. Any advice is hugely appreciated - it's scared me a little how easily I could have bought a 3-5w laser and set it on auto in the corner of the room while I'd want to learn to do that scale safely I feel many miles from it yet.

    Secondly though what's with the Phoenix 4 demo? I'm very interested in live control (if you've got to have a trained operator there why not?) so it's name keeps rearing up but the demo is a massive turn-off to spending hundreds of pounds when it shouts DEMO across all it's screens and has a persistent pop-up that crashes the whole thing out terminally if you're doing anything when it pops? Just completely disable the output interface on the whole product please Mr. Pangolin, I don't feel I am able to make a comparison between it and QS fairly

    That said QS seems to be winning for the atmospherics I'd like to focus on - delicate tendrils of light, subtle colour blends, fading to stretch the light out from a point and interpolation between effects is what I want so I have acres of headroom before getting to big beams for drama. Think this might mean starting with a blank slate. Any pointers also appreciated
    suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.

  3. #3
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    I'm guessing that you are UK based from the 's reference?
    If in doubt... Give it a clout?

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    Quote Originally Posted by swamidog View Post
    does "phoenix" indication location or software?
    Software - I was talking about Phoenix software in the post, the oddity of the demo seemed to warrant special mention.

    And yes the UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by frostypaw View Post
    Software - I was talking about Phoenix software in the post, the oddity of the demo seemed to warrant special mention.

    And yes the UK
    ok cool.. phoenix (the location) has additional laser safety procedures to follow.
    suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.

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    Although Phoenix is now owned by Pangolin. Personally, I would also look at Beyond. (or Live Pro for more Live Power albeit with the loss of other areas of control and a steeper learning curve).

    QS is quite basic and really below Phoenix in feature set from memory, and although it's fairly powerful under the skin, is limited compared to Beyond, Live Pro or Phoenix. It will give you easy control though with little learning curve. One advantage, is provided Pangolin are still offering it, they used to allow you to upgrade by paying the difference ie if you wanted to upgrade to Beyond from QS, you simply pay the difference, not the whole price, so at least from that perspective, QS makes some sense.

    BTW a 12cm beam will look pretty crappy in my opinion. Perhaps you should consider using BAM's as well as lenses, and as a general rule don't make assumptions eg beam profiles, diameters etc. Measurements are the way to go especially as with factors such as power, lasers rarely make what is quoted eg my 2.1W makes over 2.8W or nearly 50% more. So 2.1W would be a very bad assumption to make!

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    Thanks - yeah I did that maths and felt very sad, then did it again and again. I was planning on using the software attenuation but wasn't sure if I should trust it, I take it that's a yes

    Is the better solution to half-defocus half-dim?

    I'd be very happy if el-cheapo turns out to give out that much - at a third of the equivalent kvant model I'm not expecting much but will be shooting it (alone!) the width of the building (some 16m) with the fullest beam I can to get some idea of the mess of the beam shape and it's true divergence - I'm just making assumptions now to get my head around the next step. The diodes are hard adjustable too so will be dialing it down for home, but if you think it might actually be over power how to measure it at my sorta point of experimentation? :unsure:

    I'm busy reading the manuals just now and seeing what the different packages should be letting me do if I could use all of them, keep meandering halfway into LSX thoughts as well. Can't even really find LivePro anymore! Right headache when it's a fair bit of money

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    Quote Originally Posted by frostypaw View Post
    Thanks - yeah I did that maths and felt very sad, then did it again and again. I was planning on using the software attenuation but wasn't sure if I should trust it, I take it that's a yes

    Is the better solution to half-defocus half-dim?

    I'd be very happy if el-cheapo turns out to give out that much - at a third of the equivalent kvant model I'm not expecting much but will be shooting it (alone!) the width of the building (some 16m) with the fullest beam I can to get some idea of the mess of the beam shape and it's true divergence - I'm just making assumptions now to get my head around the next step. The diodes are hard adjustable too so will be dialing it down for home, but if you think it might actually be over power how to measure it at my sorta point of experimentation? :unsure:

    I'm busy reading the manuals just now and seeing what the different packages should be letting me do if I could use all of them, keep meandering halfway into LSX thoughts as well. Can't even really find LivePro anymore! Right headache when it's a fair bit of money
    i'm a big fan of LSX. however, i never use it in live mode, so i can't comment on how good it is for things like that.
    suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.

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    Diverging output will always work more effectively at lowering irradiance over a fixed area than lowering power at the source, plus you have the added benefit of having full power beams to use outside of your safety zone. However, a combination of lensing and BAM is probably the ticket to maintain decent looking, safe beams.

  10. #10
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    Pangolin bought Phoenix a year or so ago, and seem to be 'tinkering ' with it... but I'm not convinced it's high on their list of priorities. As a beginner, I'd recommend QuickShow or Beyond if you can stretch to it. Q'S is great for just diving in and getting stuff out, though the St stock frames are a bit cheesy. Beyond is basically QuickShow 's big brother and has loads of bits you can tinker with to do cool things, but so much so that although I've had it nearly three years now, I've barely scratched the surface of what it can do. Also, as it's still in heavy development, it gets updated very regularly, which can be irritating...

    As for your beam and crowd scanning, I'd think your idea of 1/2 & 1/2 would work, but im always a little wary of points of failure, and software could, in very extreme circumstances admittedly, possibly fail and override the BAM?
    H&S would want you to be aware this is a posability, even if it's a miniscule one... as long as you can prove you are aware and have minimised the risk you should be fine.

    The reason I was asking where in the UK you are was that I have both QS and Beyond and could show both if you wanted to 'try before you buy' as it were
    If in doubt... Give it a clout?

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