Morons with laser pointers - awesome takedown...

[planters]

I will proudly support an extremely drastic PUBLIC punishment for any and all individuals caught intentionally aiming at an aircraft. Sentence one of these little shitheads to the rest of their life in prison for this, one count of attempted murder for each person on the aircraft, put it on the evening news, see how fast the number of incidents drops.

I just read this and I have to say that right now you frighten me more than that idiot. He is wrong, absolutely wrong. but so are you. I understand you're very angry and that is going to be in play here, but this is a republic or aside from the jerks in Washington is supposed to be. This is not a monarchy or a dictatorship where some well intentioned slob can make "an example" of on of his subjects for the good of the people.

No, they are not terrorists. They are criminals. The meaning of terrorist can not be morphed just so it can be applied to any crime because of the seriousness of the crime. A serial, child rapist is not a terrorist either.

The question that comes to my mind is why aren't they firing rifles up at these aircraft. The range is similar (the danger range is at least within 1-2x either way) the cost of a several watt laser pointer is not that far off of the price of a basic rifle. You can fire through an oil filter or metal can and the report is very soft and both are legal to own. A few 30-06 rounds into an engine is a serious thing. My thought is that the vast majority of these laser pointer folks do not actually mean to hurt anyone but want to see their new toy projected onto something as remote and fast as an aircraft.

[Draco]

that's why i mentioned education in schools, Hell we even had hunters safety and fire arm/archery safety as a normal part of schooling
Emotion also needs to be removed before solutions are thought or debated about, no one can debate or judge accurately when you are upset and i know most of us are passionate of this type of thing

[ghosttrain]

I just read this and I have to say that right now you frighten me more than that idiot.

+1
I already responded to some of his points but looks like it flew over everyone's heads.

The question that comes to my mind is why aren't they firing rifles up at these aircraft. The range is similar (the danger range is at least within 1-2x either way) the cost of a several watt laser pointer is not that far off of the price of a basic rifle. You can fire through an oil filter or metal can and the report is very soft and both are legal to own. A few 30-06 rounds into an engine is a serious thing. My thought is that the vast majority of these laser pointer folks do not actually mean to hurt anyone but want to see their new toy projected onto something as remote and fast as an aircraft.

Exactly. Ironically, I thought this would be common sense to the rest. You don't see actual terrorists using laser pointers to harm people or attack aircraft. These are people who are playing with their new "toy" which they got on ebay. Technically speaking they are criminals, but that's harsh... It's like giving a water gun filled with acetone to a kid and then blaming the kid for shooting it to others faces. Look, it seems common sense to us because we know more about lasers than the average person.

[-bart-]

Ever tried filling a water gun with acetone ?

[Stuka]

...
The question that comes to my mind is why aren't they firing rifles up at these aircraft. The range is similar (the danger range is at least within 1-2x either way) the cost of a several watt laser pointer is not that far off of the price of a basic rifle. You can fire through an oil filter or metal can and the report is very soft and both are legal to own. A few 30-06 rounds into an engine is a serious thing. My thought is that the vast majority of these laser pointer folks do not actually mean to hurt anyone but want to see their new toy projected onto something as remote and fast as an aircraft.

Yeah, and the dumbasses that throw rocks off a bridge onto moving traffic below probably don't intend to maim or kill either; in every incident of that I've ever read or heard about, the idiots were just doing it because they thought it would be fun.

If these laser incidences were just a recent occurrence, there would probably be more tolerance, but this is something that has now been going on, and getting worse, for several years. SOME level of common sense should prevail, but obviously it doesn't with far too many of these idiots, and a few more harsh sentences it probably the only thing that will truly make a difference. Not terrorists, but definitely a growing problem to be dealt with before someone gets seriously hurt or killed.

Hell, if you watch the whole video I originally linked to, it appears the dumbass KNEW he was doing something wrong & illegal - between laser shots, he even appears to mockingly simulate the prone position sometimes required during an arrest!!

+1
...You don't see actual terrorists using laser pointers to harm people or attack aircraft...

Really? You have insight into the minds of the average terrorist, do you?
How often do you actually get the chance to see a terrorist in action?

Guess what bucko -
My training & experience tells me that a fucking terrorist will & does use whatever tools are available to them, including the same lasers, off-the-shelf "drones", media, etc. that we use. A handheld laser can and is used as targeting device just as easily by a terrorist or other criminal group as it is by our own military or law enforcement.

And again, while I agree that calling the current generation of laser pointer idiots "terrorists" might be a bit extreme, they are non the less continually performing ILLEGAL actions that intentionally puts the aircraft and it's occupants in potential danger. Just like spotlighting a flying aircraft with high-power spotlight, illuminating a flying aircraft with a laser is considered to be intentionally interfering with the flight of an aircraft, and is considered to be a felony - and rightfully so.

For those naysayers that seem to think it's no big deal to be on the RECEIVING end of an aircraft being lit up by lasers -
Do you think the FAA would make such a big deal out of the requirements for reporting outdoor laser shows if there wasn't a serious hazard involved?
As many of us have discussed in other threads on this forum, being on the receiving end of lasers (and spotlights, flares, etc.) while flying low-level at night can present a very sudden and potentially very dangerous distraction to the aircrew. And in my book, anyone that has NOT been in that situation and tries to just shrug it off as an over-reaction of pilots and the FAA, is probably not a whole lot smarter than the fucking idiots that are actually shining the lasers at the aircraft...

[buffo]

Calling these people terrorists is extremism. This cheapens the entire argument for punishing them in the first place. They are not terrorists.

As several people have already mentioned, if you want to take down an airliner, you don't use a laser pointer. And even if you're hell-bent on using a laser of some sort, you definitely don't want to use a visible light laser. I have said this before, but it bears repeating: Give me a converted laserscope with the KTP removed and a decent 12 inch telescope and I'll show you a cheap, mobile, off-the-shelf solution that is genuinely dangerous to commercial aviation.

The fact that airliners are not falling out of the sky (despite the fact that the information on how to do all this is readily available) demonstrates that "terror" is not the threat here. So let's focus on the real issue rather than an easily-attacked straw man.

Stuka mentioned the analogy with kids throwing rocks off of an overpass onto passing cars on the highway below. And I agree that these idiots with their laser pointers are being just as reckless and irresponsible as the kids with the rocks, and most of them probably know this. (For sure the guy in the story above knew he was wrong.)

But consider this: kids have been throwing rocks off of bridges for DECADES. I knew kids that did that back in the 1970's, and today there are still kids throwing rocks off of bridges. It's reckless behavior that points to a larger problem with regard to lack of education, lack of empathy, and a lack of proper supervision.

If we are all honest with ourselves, we can probably find some point in our misspent youth where we did something at least a little similar to this. (Ever toilet-paper a house? Or throw eggs at one? Ever smash someone's jack-o-lantern on Halloween? Or put an M-80 firework in someone's mailbox? Not as severe, of course, but it's the same symptomatic behavior.)

Fortunately, most of us quickly learned the error of our ways, either because we got caught (and got our asses whipped by our folks), or because we grew up and realized that breaking other people's shit is a bad thing.

I think the threat of jail is a poor deterrent when compared to the natural maturing process where you realize that it's not OK to be a dick. Not to say that jail doesn't have its place, mind you. But it is not the best deterrent. True, some people take longer to grow out of that phase than others, and indeed a small subset of people never outgrow it. Jail might help deter those folks a bit more.

But some people are just assholes by nature. I'm sure we all can name one or two in our neighborhood if we thing about it hard enough. And that's why we need jails. If you won'd be deterred, you will be punished...

Note that I'm not making excuses for these assholes. If you break the law, you pay the consequences. But in this case, I do NOT support charging "laser pointer idiots" with attempted murder, or attempted terrorism, or anything remotely so draconian. As Eric pointed out, this is the United States of America, and we are against cruel and unusual punishment. (Granted, we have a ways to come yet, but we're supposed to be working on it.)

Charge them for their crime, and make the punishment appropriate. If you throw a rock off a bridge and miss the car but scare the shit out of the driver, I promise you that the cop who saw you throw the rock is going to take you downtown for an uncomfortable chat, and you will likely end up in court facing several fines (at least). If you caused an accident, you're going to be on the hook for damages. And if you killed someone, even though you didn't mean to, well, too bad Charlie - your ass will be going to jail.

That being said, the chances of causing injury to anyone in an airliner using a laser pointer from the ground are nearly zero. Nevertheless, we can't just ignore the problem. There needs to be some sort of punishment. (Fines, community service, etc.) In the case of a helicopter at low altitude, there is a slightly greater risk of injury, and I support stiffer fines for such incidents. But I can't condone locking someone up for several years for something like this. (Especially when you could be convicted of assault and battery - which actually does cause serious injury - and serve less time.)

What I do think we should do is focus on increased public education about the dangers of lasers and laser pointers, but WITHOUT the sensationalism. There is something akin to the contagion effect at work here. Sensationalist news broadcasts (not to mention equally sensationalist posts here on PL) can actually fuel further incidents like this. (Much like publicizing mass-shooting suspects on TV has fueled other copy-cat crimes.) The last thing we want to do is encourage yet another young, impressionable (and galactically stupid) teenager to try this stunt.

Adam

[Laser Wizardry]

"opinion removed because everybody knows laser pointers are safe to look into while piloting an aircraft and it would be wrong to make the punishment severe enough to actually deter a dangerous crime"

[Eidetic]

I've been in low flying aircraft being lased. It looked like a flashing green dot on the ground with a trail coming off it, just as expected. I wonder how many of the laser hits on aircraft are done during take-off or landing that actually make it in to the cockpit? How many are from sources in the flight path ahead of the aircraft? My guess is not many. The pilots in my extended family all consider such laser incidents as insignificant. Those hand-pointing lasers at aircraft do so because they believe it won't do damage (and I agree), but I know about the law and they apparently don't, or don't think they'll be identified. We don't hear about them pointing those lasers toward drivers from overpasses. I believe that's because they all probably drive, and can visualize the results of such a distraction if they did.

[buffo]

My point is to prosecute them as if they were trying to take down the plane. Publicize that every bit as much as the Michael Jackson Doctor trial, and mark my word, the number of laser pointer aircraft incidents will drop to single digits overnight.

I don't agree that prosecuting them as terrorists will have anywhere near as dramatic effect on the incident rate as you do.

Furthermore, even if it would work, I am against the excessive prosecution on constitutional grounds. We are better than that, damn it! (Or at least we profess to be better than that. What good are all of our high values if we discard them whenever it's convenient to do so?)

These assholes are doing their best to strip YOU of your rights to own and use lasers. Get it yet?

Yes, I get it. That doesn't mean I'm willing to abandon 240 years of wisdom. Just because it affects me (and you) more than the average Joe is no excuse for extremism. There is a middle ground here that preserves our right to own and use lasers (and perform laser shows) without locking up even more of our population.

Adam

[Stuka]

I've been in low flying aircraft being lased. It looked like a flashing green dot on the ground with a trail coming off it, just as expected...

Yeah, got me there -
A simple green dot with a trail is all it ever is.

Can't imagine why aircrews that continuously fly low level at night in urban areas (i.e. medevac, law enforcement, and news helicopters) and get repeatedly lased get so upset.
After all, everyone knows that a 5mw laser pointer and a 1 watt (or greater) handheld have the exact same effect over any distance...

We don't hear about them pointing those lasers toward drivers from overpasses. I believe that's because they all probably drive, and can visualize the results of such a distraction if they did.

BINGO -
Regardless of the intent or understanding of the morons with the laser pointers, that same distraction is exactly what makes the aircraft lasing so stupid and dangerous, especially when it happens to low-flying helicopters (or other aircraft) operating around urban areas.
While the chances of permanently damaging the eyesight of the aircrew are probably slim, sudden distractions in the cockpit while operating in that environment can present a VERY real and dangerous situation.

Deleting some previously posted details, but -

I wonder how many folks on this forum would like to try driving their cars through busy traffic, or even navigating their vehicles through a crowded parking lot - or for that matter, driving solo on an open road, but in each scenario, with no street lights around them - meaning they have to depend solely on their headlights and adaptive night vision or night vision goggles to see clearly - while someone with a high-power handheld at 1,000 feet or less distance, suddenly & continually lases them while they try to drive?

Pretty sure that most folks here would consider it more than just a minor annoyance...