Pesident Clinton

[frostypaw]

I know that this position gives the benefit of the doubt to the people entering Europe, but they ARE largely Muslims and how do you explain the demographics? Typically, refuges would be the young and old, women and the sick. These people are disproportionately young men.

This took me ONE google search and less than 25 seconds to prove utterly wrong and fallacious - literally directly answering that wild claim too.

http://www.politifact.com/new-hampsh...ugees-are-abl/
"The United Nations keeps track of more than 4 million registered Syrian refugees, with an online database that includes specific demographic data.

Let’s start by leaving out the other qualifiers — young and able-bodied — and look at whether the "vast majority" of refugees are men. We need not split hairs on what constitutes a "vast majority" here, since the gender breakdown is pretty evenly split; in hard numbers, the majority of refugees is actually female.

Further, to look at only the male refugees – which amount to 49.7 percent of the total – less than half of that population is age 18 or older. Men ages 18 to 59 comprise about 22 percent of all Syrian refugees.

Contrary to Fiorina’s statement, most refugees overall are children age 17 or younger."

Turns out you're not taking men anyway: "The priorities go to torture survivors, people with serious medical conditions, children and teens on their own, and women and children at risk,"

That video's a joke too - putting on a bowtie and acting out giving a lecture to your living room doesn't make someone an expert, even if they are on youtube or manage to register a web address.

I'm out dude. I can't respond to this anymore and maintain my respect. You need to learn how to use Google if you're going to demonise millions of people and compare them with pedophiles just out of unreasoned fear.

[planters]

"The United Nations keeps track of more than 4 million registered Syrian refugees, with an online database that includes specific demographic data.

Theses invaders are from all over and the documentation is sparse. There have been over one million entering Europe in the last year. This database is not totally irrelevant, but does not apply to the current invasion.

That video's a joke too - putting on a bowtie and acting out giving a lecture to your living room doesn't make someone an expert, even if they are on youtube or manage to register a web address.

You dispute the facts? I don't like bow ties either, but I am not so superficial.

I can't respond to this anymore and maintain my respect. You need to learn how to use Google if you're going to demonise millions of people and compare them with pedophiles just out of unreasoned fear.

Mohammad was a pedophile. That's why the comparison was introduced. Beheadings, rapes, drownings and crucifixions are the tools of the jihadists. Moderate Muslims need to confront this and defeat this themselves if they wish not to be seen as tolerant.

I'm out dude.

Fine. We'll watch over the next few years and see who was right.

[frostypaw]

We don't need to mate. People have lived alongside millions of Muslims for centuries. We're not all dead, not all our children have been raped. But don't let that get in the way of a good bit of racism and prejudice almost every single "fact" you've imagined has been shown to be wrong.

The thing is you *are* so superficial - you believed and posted his nonsense. Hell "invaders from all over, documentation sparse" - you've not even figured out that Europe's open internal borders aren't the same thing as an open external border to all immigrants

So yeah. I guess your limits are now clear. Disappointing. I'd hate to be a non white christian american reading this forum. Would this have been allowed if this was all "black folk are devil" rather than "brown folk are the devil with scary words"?

[ghosttrain]

Okay, I haven't watched planters's linked video, nor do I claim to have knowledge on the percentage of jihadists among refugees.

Do you have any response to my post?
Because if you're going to say this thread is about racism and demonizing muslims, you have a problem with me too.

Let me tell you something: it is comforting to think a huge religion is not a source of a huge problem because you won't "offend" those people (political correctness). For me if it is people's heads being cut off with an utility knife (videos available) or people being buried up to the waist in the ground and beaten to death with rocks vs some people being offended the choice is obvious.

You can deny there's a problem or how it should be dealt with and resume your everyday life, but there's a problem growing and many people don't have the same luxury as you, they have to face the problem right now. Be it the kurds in the Middle East or europeans.

France closed its borders after an attack. Why wait for that to happen? It's no rocket science that if you let muslims in, you can't possiby expect to not end up with jihadists coming in too. The eprcentage doesn't matter, terror attacks are not prepared and carried out by huge crowds of terrorists. Letting aliens inside US or any country can be dangerous to the national security of the country at times, that's why it's even allowed for the president to do in the bloody constitution.

[jeejeedr]

Just my two cents, but how we act in europe was ok let's say 30 years ago when people came over and stayed here permanent (and integrated pretty well). But nowadays people come in and they go back and forth between europe and the middle east continuously. Whatever integration they have gone through is wound back each time they go back. Moreover, when they come back they 'teach' the ones that stayed here the 'lost values'. so in the end there is no more integration but more like a group of people that keep the values and customs they had in their originating country. I cannot see any solution without dissolving that group in the local population so that they can pickup our customs and values without being continuously being reeducated with the customs and values of their origine. And at the same time make sure that there is no more going back and forth.
Just my two cents, so don't shoot me if you disagree.

[frostypaw]

Okay, I haven't watched planters's linked video, nor do I claim to have knowledge on the percentage of jihadists among refugees.

Do you have any response to my post?
Because if you're going to say this thread is about racism and demonizing muslims, you have a problem with me too.

Youtube doesn't count as research - and American news doubly so. They claimed Birmingham was a muslim no-go zone run by Shariah courts - mate I've got plenty of friends who live in Birmingham, it's nothing like that - I don't have to rely on youtube I can go visit and ask them and look.

I understand those reports are scary and that's because they're *meant* to be - these people profit from your fear and attention, they're a commercial enterprise. For any heaven's sake find a 12 year old child - ask them what they've been taught about what to believe on the internet and how to work out what is good evidence. Listen, take notes! Is the person an internationally recognised authority, what do their critics say and are they raving loons or credible themselves etc

As I say - just use Google. It takes seconds https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourc...no%20go%20area - you can do the same for the other Youtube stories.

Let me tell you something: it is comforting to think a huge religion is not a source of a huge problem because you won't "offend" those people (political correctness). For me if it is people's heads being cut off with an utility knife (videos available) or people being buried up to the waist in the ground and beaten to death with rocks vs some people being offended the choice is obvious.

I'm a gay guy - I spent the first twenty years of my life being made to pray night and morning to someone who apparently made me very wrong and hates me and wants me to never actually be happy in the way he made me but to torture myself daily in his name in the hope of not burning for eternity - what do you think my opinion is of organised religion?

They're all just control methods - can't explain to folk who don't understand genetics why not to interbreed? Tell them god said not to do it. Want to keep women in 'their place'? Say God made them just for men's company and blame them for the insertion of sin into the world. Need to prove it? Na, just get them when they're kids you can convince folk of anything then.

They all suck pretty much, though many have good bits and many good people in them. It's just terrible if you're on the other side of the god-drawn arbitrary line.

The thing about the 'close borders' suggestion is pretty much all of these attacks are carried out by people who lived in the country already. Those Belgians have lived there for decades at least if not born there (not checked where they were born) - the British bombers had lived here for years. How does closing the borders make any difference?

They did it then to catch them as they try to flee to another country - not to try and stop people who already lived there, it is simply impossible that such an action could achieve such an effect.

But look at how much ISIS has won already - they'd be throwing a party listening to this thread. They have stated time and again their intention is to turn westerners against Islam so every Muslim feels threatened and is forced to either give up their religion or turn to ISIS and terrorism to defend their faith against what they call 'the Crusaders'. Doesn't it sound like they've won already in here? Want to make them lose? Do you want to win? Then go look at the numbers, realise you're about as likely to be harmed by terrorism as injure yourself permanently putting on your trousers and go live a normal happy life, go find a muslim and give them a hug and say "isn't this better than all that hate? for centuries our people have lived together peacefully, let's carry on."

And isis's stated aim crumbles and they lose. Or we can roll over and act like good little bitches *shrug* heck here's a bit of genuine ratified youtube footage explaining it by someone who was their captive for almost a year hearing this from the horses' mouth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KovpPJULvgk

[buffo]

Moderate Muslims need to confront this and defeat this themselves if they wish not to be seen as tolerant.

I don't see people crying out for fellow Baptists to confront and defeat the Westboro Baptist Church... Do you condemn all Baptists as hate-mongering homophobes based on the actions of the WBC alone? Do you even hold the Baptist religion as a whole accountable for the actions and statements of the WBC?

Granted, they aren't killing people, but the analogy still holds. It is unreasonable to expect OTHERS in a group who are not involved in the undesired actions to take unilateral action against the assholes in the group... Especially when the only thing that constitutes membership in the group is a shared religious belief system and/or the same nationality.

Stopping extremist Muslim terrorism is a job for law enforcement. While it would be nice if other, moderate Muslims would support this effort (and in fact, many do), it is not their job to try to stop it. Arguably, they are ill-equipped to do so in the first place. (Extremists aren't going to listen to Moderates.)

Adam

[planters]

I don't see people crying out for fellow Baptists to confront and defeat the Westboro Baptist Church... Do you condemn all Baptists as hate-mongering homophobes based on the actions of the WBC alone? Do you even hold the Baptist religion as a whole accountable for the actions and statements of the WBC?

Granted, they aren't killing people, but the analogy still holds. It is unreasonable to expect OTHERS in a group who are not involved in the undesired actions to take unilateral action against the assholes in the group... Especially when the only thing that constitutes membership in the group is a shared religious belief system and/or the same nationality.

I agree with you and I know that this approach to holding moderate Muslims accountable is unfair. You were in the military,right? I assume you may also have been in a fraternity in college. Remember when the subordinates were approached by their superiors because of some transgression? The superior didn't know who among the large number of possibilities committed the wrongdoing and the tendency of the subordinates was to "stick together" in face of this authority? The decision was to hold the whole group liable for the act because they were the one's in possession of the knowledge and needed to be pressured to hold their comrade responsible. This also served to shift the loyalties from subordinate vs superior to the innocent vs the guilty.

The fact that the threat DOES involve killing and torture and rape makes this difficult approach compelling.

Okay, I haven't watched planters's linked video

You really should. It is very interesting. Try to forgive the bow tie.

Now, frostypaw,

We don't need to mate. People have lived alongside millions of Muslims for centuries. We're not all dead, not all our children have been raped. But don't let that get in the way of a good bit of racism and prejudice

The thing is you *are* so superficial

So yeah. I guess your limits are now clear. Disappointing. I'd hate to be a non white christian american reading this forum.

You said you were out of here, so OK you're not. You do not know me and you have no idea of my limits. You insult and you say you would hate to be a non white Christian reading this forum. You seem to hate reading this forum being whatever you actually are.

I'm a gay guy - I spent the first twenty years of my life being made to pray night and morning to someone who apparently made me very wrong and hates me and wants me to never actually be happy in the way he made me but to torture myself daily in his name in the hope of not burning for eternity - what do you think my opinion is of organised religion?

OK, this insight explains some of your intensity here, but it does not excuse your insults. For what it is worth, You Tube is in fact a good source for research as is Google, that you site. Another resource is the Koran. As I have explained elsewhere on this forum and you might not know, I have read the Koran (in English) and as a gay man, with a serious issue with intrusive and authoritarian religion, I would think that Islam would be threatening to you, especially. Terrorism, the execution of gays and the subjugation of women in the name of a formalized religion is threatening to every reasonable, moral human being even if they do not have a past experience such as yours.

[ghosttrain]

Youtube doesn't count as research - and American news doubly so.

That's just nonsense.
Youtube is just a way of sharing and receiving information. Saying it doesn't count as research is saying video footage doesn't count as research, which are frequently uploaded to youtube. Moreover it's the same as saying books and audio recording don't count as research which are another form of sharing and receiving information.
News can also very easily count as research. Depends on the news, you already know my stance on the mainstream media. But when you are shown video footage of someone talking without being interrupted, cut, edited, asked loaded questions, it's the same as watching a video shot by some amateur with his phone, just higher quality.

BTW I'm in Greece now which is Europe and I have friends from Europe as well. Also from Paris. Not that this matters, but just letting you know you're not the only one.

I understand those reports are scary and that's because they're *meant* to be

Oh, and how gullible we are. And how ironic I'm told this after our discussion about Trump and the media.

Look, you didn't even bother to check the links, at least until the 5th one.


Look at this. This isn't news, this isn't even an interview. This is a muslim (fundamentalist) talking to bunch of other muslims.
From 1:19 - 2:30
2:02 "How many of you agree that the punishments described in the Quran, Sunnah, whether it is death, whether it is stoning for adultery [which is death too, btw], whatever it is, if it is from Allah and his messenger, that is the best punishment ever possible for humankind and that is what we should apply in the world. Who agrees with that?"
*Everyone* raises their hands! Obviously the media are just scaring us, huh?

Let's just take apostasy (punishment for exercising freedom of religion). Quran 4:89.
http://quran.com/4/89
They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

News isn't scary. Quran is scary and islamists are scary. New Testament is scary too but whoever says it should be law and taken literally is ridiculed and laughed at today, that is the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...hurch+attacked

They claimed Birmingham was a muslim no-go zone run by Shariah courts - mate I've got plenty of friends who live in Birmingham, it's nothing like that - I don't have to rely on youtube I can go visit and ask them and look.

I don't know who "they" are here but everyone didn't claim Birmingham was a muslim no-go zone, they claimed there were muslim no-go zones *in* Birmingham.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dao89RedIco

As I say - just use Google.

Nah, google is not a reliable source.

I'm a gay guy

Good for you, people like us are fighting for your rights.

The thing about the 'close borders' suggestion is pretty much all of these attacks are carried out by people who lived in the country already. Those Belgians have lived there for decades at least if not born there (not checked where they were born) - the British bombers had lived here for years. How does closing the borders make any difference?

Provided that is all true which I doubt you don't bring more people who will live there for years and years later do the same.
But if seriously, I highly doubt that, and I also don't see how those terrorists not being refugees means there aren't jihadists among refugees.

BTW have you heard about the Trump-esque wall in Israel? Really helped with the suicide bombers somehow.

They did it then to catch them as they try to flee to another country

Closed borders is closed borders both ways.

But look at how much ISIS has won already - they'd be throwing a party listening to this thread. They have stated time and again their intention is to turn westerners against Islam so every Muslim feels threatened and is forced to either give up their religion or turn to ISIS and terrorism to defend their faith against what they call 'the Crusaders'.

I think I know more than enough about islamists. What you said is true, what is also true is terrorists like those preach to muslims to go and conquer the world and that non-believers are filth and should be destroyed.
Point is, they don't need europeans closing borders to fuel hate among muslims. They are creating hate successfully by themselves just fine. Well, US helped too with the oil thing...

you're about as likely to be harmed by terrorism as injure yourself permanently putting on your trousers

Do you really want us to get into statistics? Because I can give you statistics, but that will bloat and derail this thread even more.

And if horrible murders can be prevented, they should be prevented. Lawmakers don't check the percentage of homicides when writing criminal codes. Every life matters.

go live a normal happy life, go find a muslim and give them a hug and say "isn't this better than all that hate? for centuries our people have lived together peacefully, let's carry on."

What you're suggesting is not to go hug a muslim, but go hug a suicide bomber.

it's what I said earlier, it's comforting to think of it that way, but the fact is there are people who want to see you dead (cause you're gay, and don't believe their flavor of god). Maybe people are inherently good, I don't know. But the fact is humans are very easy to manipulate and make them do horrendous things.
If "Can't we all just get along?" worked we would all be getting along a long time ago.
I believe that peace is possible, but not like this, by not doing anything while people filled with hate are doing quite a number of things.
That's the whole point we have written down laws instead of hugging each other and hoping for the best.

[planters]

gosttrain,

That's perfect.