Page 4 of 113 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 1123

Thread: Pesident Clinton

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,513

    Default

    I desperately wanted to avoid this thread, but...
    You probably should have.

    In order to avoid cloudy thinking don't redirect the argument. I don't oppose socialism because of Greece or the 60's or any emotional baggage associated with the word.

    The primary fault with socialism is not complicated and it is not subtle. Redistributing the wealth and resources from those that that produce it to those that don't, discourages those that produce it and decreases the incentive to remain in that group. The lazy, unemployed bum is not a straw man and what would be a two dimensional argument? Each of us weighs the costs and benefits of working and socialism makes working or working harder less desirable and in the end, someone has to work to support all those straw men.

    Truthfully, most of the democrats in this race are fairly moderate.
    There are two democrats in the race. One is a criminal and the other is a SELF PROCLAIMED SOCIALIST. If that's an insult then he should stop embracing it. I think it's a pejorative based on cloudy thinking and a misunderstanding of human nature.

    Hmmm... Just about every prosperous nation in the European Union has a government with MORE socialist policies than Bernie is currently promoting. Since those successful nations don't seem to be imploding
    Yes they are. Part of the reason for allowing foreign immigrants into Europe is that the reproductive rate is below the replacement level. The millions of Muslims are attracted to Europe because of the generous welfare state. It's most generous in Germany and so, that has been their target destination.

    One day I hope that you, too, will realize that your success, great though it is, is not exclusively a product of your innate ability and effort.
    When I heard something similar suggested by Obama I wanted to puke. Millions of Americans agreed with me. Of course I benefited from the dedication of my parents, older friends, relatives, teachers and the grace of God. I will not allow this to be hijacked to justify some impersonal function of the State.

    Honestly Eric, you are a very smart person, but when I hear you talk about politics I almost can't believe it's the same man speaking. OK, I get it - you don't like socialism. But that doesn't make it intrinsically flawed.
    I resent your assumption that your view of politics is so elevated that you can pass judgement. Maybe I'm just dumb everywhere or maybe I am consistently smart and your view of socialism is out to lunch. You are correct that just because I don't like it doesn't make it flawed. Of course. But, because it's flawed...I don't like it.

    Socialism is for loosers. Socialism is theft.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    My momentum is too precisely determined :S
    Posts
    1,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by planters View Post

    The primary fault with socialism is not complicated and it is not subtle. Redistributing the wealth and resources from those that that produce it to those that don't, discourages those that produce it and decreases the incentive to remain in that group. The lazy, unemployed bum is not a straw man and what would be a two dimensional argument? Each of us weighs the costs and benefits of working and socialism makes working or working harder less desirable and in the end, someone has to work to support all those straw men.
    That is not a fact. Even more, it's generally wrong. You could even say redistributing wealth enables people who aren't currently generating wealth to do so, in some situations.

    Saying everyone who benefits from redistribution is a lazy unemployed bum is an insult to the ones who are benefiting and not a bum.

    Being productive not being encouraged is why communism failed. But communism has nothing to do with socialism. You should be smart enough to make that distinction. There are plenty of ways to ensure working is still encouraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by planters View Post
    Socialism is theft.
    Tell that to the South American farmer who lost his land to a megacorporation, and has to work on it for less than half his original pay. I bet when you account for all things, people are stealing more in the current system.





    I can appreciate your naive sense of fairness, because after all why would anyone have the right to something he didn't work for? But when you think about it for a little longer you'll realise it's just necessary to give up some of your generated value to have a sustainable society. Since you support Trump it must be you think it's OK to spend your money on foreign wars and bully Mexicans, but personally I like the idea that when life fucks you over as it likes to do, you can just keep on carrying on and make the best out of it, instead of being demonised as an unproductive member of society.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    768

    Default

    About Trump: I still don't see people giving a real argument against him. It's either "he's a dick" or "he doesn't know what he's talking about". Can anyone give an actual example of why people shouldn't vote for him?
    Good question. It's a long time till November and a lot can still happen, but look at some numbers...

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...nton-5491.html

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...nton-5162.html

    It's all about the end result- Republicans could probably nominate Bozo the clown and win over Hillary in the general election, but not with Trump...

    I can't see how you can bash entire groups of people (Hispanics, Women, Refugees, prisoners of war, Muslims, Hittites, Edomites, Jebusites, et al) as Trump has done and still win a general election- his mouth is his worst enemy.

    If Trump gets the nomination, Hillary will likely wipe him clean with the same cloth that she used on her email server...

    Last edited by dchammonds; 03-03-2017 at 16:02.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,513

    Default

    Haha. I see you like Ayn Rand.
    Yes, I do. Your example and the discussion about infrastructure assumes that we can step back and impose a system from some higher place to right wrongs and mitigate hardship. This is part of the danger that following a socialist agenda creates. Who designs the system. How is it enforced? What if I wont participate? It is unstable. Remember the saddle point in mathematics?

    There is probably a misconception that because I oppose socialism, I support the Republicans. I do not!
    The differences between the Democrats and the Republicans are small compared to the differences between the State and the citizens.

    Unless of course you know of a way to accomplish this without socialism. Then I'm curious to hear what you have to say.
    Free market capitalism is a good start. If you are that manufacturer and your success depends on the poor having government checks to buy, say the laser pointers you make then what are you going to do with all that money you make (the 10% the government didn't confiscate)? You could go out and buy say..a..well, I guess you could buy some laser pointers because none of those poor are manufacturing anything. Socialism discourages innovation and hard work. Fear is a motivator as well. We all know how fear has moved us in the past. The promise of wealth without confiscation is another motivator.

    Sanders is honest, but his philosophy would increase an already way too large state. Some of his success is due to the apocalypse he is running against for the nomination.

    Trump is surging despite the opposition of just about every institution of the Washington establishment, including his own party.

    Merkel opposes Trump

    Cameron opposes Trump

    China opposes Trump

    Boy, I like Trump.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,513

    Default

    Saying everyone who benefits from redistribution is a lazy unemployed bum is an insult to the ones who are benefiting and not a bum.
    No one said everybody. But some are...bums

    That is not a fact. Even more, it's generally wrong.
    What is not a fact and what is generally wrong? Clarify this. Socialism is redistribution.

    But communism has nothing to do with socialism.
    You should be smart enough to make that distinction.
    I'm getting fed up with being called stupid for saying something I did not say.

    I can appreciate your naive sense of fairness
    You and Buffo have a tendency to insult by positioning yourselves as arbiters of wisdom. I do have a sense of fairness and because I do not have your sense of fairness this does not make me naive. Suggesting this makes you sound arrogant.

    Being productive not being encouraged is why communism failed. But communism has nothing to do with socialism. You should be smart enough to make that distinction. There are plenty of ways to ensure working is still encouraged.
    Of course there is, with the heavy hand of the state. Nice. Again, the socialist state needs enforcement to make people comply and do what they are discouraged from doing. It is unstable.

    If Trump gets the nomination, Hillary will likely wipe him clean with the same cloth that she used on her email server...
    Ya, I'll be watching.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Manchester, NH
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Let's just simplify:

    The government of the United States is completely corrupt. We are on the verge of a total police surveillance state.

    The maximum role of a government "by the people and for the people" is the protection of life, liberty and property.

    Taxation = Theft
    War = Murder

    The military industrial complex and crony capitalism have destroyed the intended system of government.

    The lesser of evils is still evil. All the candidates are psychopaths who will expand intrusive government domestically and continue to send our sons and daughters off to murder people that have done nothing to us.

    FYI this is Article Ten of the New Hampshire Constitution:

    [Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    768

    Default

    The government of the United States is completely corrupt.
    More like incompetent, considering recent hacks on the IRS and other government sites...

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Thessaloniki
    Posts
    223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dchammonds View Post
    I can't see how you can bash entire groups of people (Hispanics, Women, Refugees, prisoners of war, Muslims, Hittites, Edomites, Jebusites, et al)
    He has never bashed any of these groups, ever. People don't seem to understand the difference between something and its parts.

    The fact that most people don't understand the difference between muslims and muslim *terrorists* or mexicans and *illegal* mexican *immigrants* or few obnoxious chicks and all women is saddening.

    Quote Originally Posted by colouredmirrorball View Post
    spend your money on foreign wars and bully Mexicans
    And you have the nerve to call Planters naive?

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Guildford, UK
    Posts
    165

    Default

    But we don't even faintly have free market capitalism - far too much of current capitalism relies on misinformation. Without regulatory forces we would all still be smoking for the good of our health. Soft and fleshy people blend well in the metal money machine and there's far more money to be made being dishonest.

    Balance in everything surely - not all taxation is theft if it is well applied. Healthcare is an excellent example where economies of scale are significant and the benefits of having lower paid workers who couldn't afford the healthcare costs still in work rather than diseased, disabled or dying outweigh the costs.

    There are other places it doesn't work. Here in the UK we've seen major wage distortion as companies have been happy to pay their workers less knowing the government will step in and pick up the shortfall - and it's so far gone that dragging it back to fair will be a proper nightmare.

    Similarly saying hard work and ability are rewarded simply hasn't proven at all true over the centuries. How is a footballer thousands of times more valuable than a surgeon? The people who care for our elderly worth virtually nothing, those who defend the country or put their lives in danger to rescue us left unsupported? What did happen to Mr Tesla? It would be nice if it was so, but it's proven otherwise - just ask the staff at Walmart.

    There are situations where both fail and others where they work - surely the wisdom is in working that out correctly, not in forcing everything on way or the other and ignoring the cracks - we know that fails for sure.

    Either way with our new Snooper's Charter privacy here is about to come to a crashing end - we'll out-intrusive everyone soon at this rate

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3,513

    Default

    More like incompetent, considering recent hacks on the IRS and other government sites...
    Incompetence is present of course, but don't forget that even with your one example, corruption is significant. Lois Learner is still a free woman and the IRS targeting of groups based on their political positions was obvious. The evil of corruption is that it is purposeful, it is intentional. Incompetence is not directed and is less likely to guide policy.

    He has never bashed any of these groups, ever. People don't seem to understand the difference between something and its parts.
    Trump is brash. He is non-political and his statements are not crafted for him by a room full of marketing graduates. As such, he might fail to steer wide enough around hot button topics and his statements can easily be modified or parsed or taken out of context to his detriment. He is also human and makes mistakes. But, his supporters and that includes me, understand this. We have come to accept that the Washington elite and the political system hate and fear him and will malign him. We also understand that what they fear is really the tens of millions of us that see this flagrant unfairness and the corruption and are no longer willing to just sit down or go away. They are insulting us and their surrogates are attacking us at rallies and we are getting angrier. With every attack we are more justified in wanting them out of power.

    Balance in everything surely - not all taxation is theft if it is well applied.
    It is if it is involuntary. It may not be wasted and be used for a noble purpose, but if it was taken without consent and ultimately if it was withheld, it would be taken with force and that is wrong.

    Similarly saying hard work and ability are rewarded simply hasn't proven at all true over the centuries.
    Being tall does not make you a good basketball player, but in general it is a necessary component. To say that hard work is not always rewarded does not mean you should pursue the opposite.

    How is a footballer thousands of times more valuable than a surgeon? The people who care for our elderly worth virtually nothing, those who defend the country or put their lives in danger to rescue us left unsupported?
    This is where the free market allows people to vote directly. There a lot of surgeons, but maybe only one football player who can do what he does and people are WILLING to pay the ticket price to fund him. If our elderly need care and we, their offspring, are unwilling to do it then the free market will pay a lot to those willing to pick up the burden. If we are then unwilling to pay that price then we as a nation are kinda shitty and are we going to freely elect a government that will force us not to be shitty through taxation and redistribution? It's illogical. As long as there is no draft or conscription then the military is voluntary.

    Without regulatory forces we would all still be smoking for the good of our health.
    We are still free to smoke, but the costs, including taxation and inconvenience as well as the health risks discourage it. What if healthcare costs were not socialized and the true costs of risky behavior such as smoking, obesity and even extreme sports were left with the individual who pursued it? What would this do to national expenditures for healthcare spending?

    resunltd,
    That is why we too chose to move here.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •