Pesident Clinton

[edison]

The water in michigan is limited as Nestle pumps the groundwater and sell it outside the state it will not be there for future generations. So it doesn,t go back to the enviroment. All life needs water and moving the water to somewhere else will create inballance. Its the same with cutting trees for wood , you need to plant new trees to close the circle of life. Companies like Nestle , mossanto and other big corporaties are in charge and their methods will harm everyone it doesn,t matter wich president you support. The key i believe is stand together and stop companies like Nestle or change their ways. If 1 person wants a raise of his paycheck and putts his work down then he gets fired but when all 300 people do the same most employers will negotiate a new deal with usually a paycheck raise and better secundair work terms. Stand together is the only way.

Eric, forgive me if i,m wrong but i don,t think your one of the elite group that has unlimited funds to safe yourself when nessesary. Like most of us do we belong to the working class who don,t have control unless we are standing together and raise a voice. I believe that capitalism works better then communisme but even in captalism their should be restrictions and laws to prevent companies like Nestle do these things. Its not right simple as that.

[planters]

edison,

Don't feel that I ask these questions in order to tear you apart like dkumpula.

I will support this wholeheartedly if the cause makes sense to me and appears fair. I said that I do not know if the water resource is limited and I meant that. We lived for a time in Chicago and to claim that water resources were limited there on the edge of a Great Lake would have been a stretch to say the least. Zion was located nearby for water to cool the reactors. Michigan is surrounded by more than one Great Lake, so that is why I asked. However, I do understand that ground water is not the same as fresh lake water and the locations could be substantially different. Also, as I said before, if Nestle is being allowed what others are being denied or for costs that are unfair irregardless of their origin, then this would trump my questions.

Also, you said that Nestle was going to turn around and sell this water outside the state? I missed that. What's that about.

[edison]

If the water is limited or not that is irrelevant, the water always has been there and when Nestle gets their hands on it they pump it up and bottle it to sell it all over the world.

Its also written in the Link i posted.

In love and war everything is allowed they say well in bussiness and making money its the same. Nestle , mossanto and other big corperations where making is the only thing that counts. Freedom of speech is very important but if someone is Fat you shouldn,t say he is Fat even though you could, its disrespectfull. Being Fat usualy has a cause and you can help the person to eat more healthy. Its a different approach. Nestle can grab the water and make allot of money regardless if there is a limited or not. Some things in life you don,t touch and somethings you don,t sell even though you can get rich out of doing so. If the profit is going skyhigh the moral goes out of the window and they get crazy. After all the water i gone there is regret and they come to their sences but then its too late.

[planters]

If the water is limited or not that is irrelevant, the water always has been there and when Nestle gets their hands on it they pump it up and bottle it to sell it all over the world.

Oh, so when you said they were selling it outside of the state you meant the water in their products, not bulk such as to supply the municipal or corporate needs of cities or companies outside of Michigan. That makes sense. I should have seen that.

If it really is unlimited then, I don't see the problem. It is like opposing a solar energy supplier for selling power to anyone because the sun that illuminated their cells was striking the surface of the State.

Is there more here that is unspoken? Is Nestle a bad neighbor, bad employer, getting away with unfair tax treatment or manipulative in their business practices? I don't like them or hate them. I don't know them or use their products (as far as I know).

[norty303]

Eric, Nestle are huge. I suspect that unless you avoid supermarkets or are self sufficient you'll probably be consuming something along the line.

http://www.nestle.co.uk/brands

Actually the wiki is more complete

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nestlé_brands

[planters]

Eric, Nestle are huge. I suspect that unless you avoid supermarkets or are self sufficient you'll probably be consuming something along the line.

Oh, I know. It isn't just chocolate powder. But, I do about half of the shopping and I actually do not think I buy any Nestle products. Nevertheless, this is just a minor point. What is the "beef" with this water use?

[dkumpula]

We have achieved everything we have through merit despite the institutional advantages we were excluded from. Given these very same characteristics in the same measure, your "po black child" would have done at least as well.

I'm admit that I'm stunned that you think you would have made it through inner-city public school and done even better than you have.

What, are you on lock down? George Clooney is pretty good looking and is an idiot. These references you hint at, are not obvious and if you are prevented from supporting your positions then you should probably refrain from calling Pence a White supremacist and Trump a racist so casually. These are very strong positions to hold without any evident proof.

No, I was on my phone and getting clips of stuff and pasting it into responses while enjoying vacation is a PITA. Now I'm back, but before I start I must point out that I didn't call Pence a white supremacist. You pointed out that he is "pro-Christian" and we had a discussion on that point. I will say he has had a history of anti-homosexuality however.

But back to The Donald; You may you agree with him that he "is the least racist person that you have ever met", but below are some of the things he has said/done. There may be some minor inaccuracies but they come from reputable / multiple news sources that I can site, while many of which we've all seen him say on TV multiple times.

1. Donald spent years saying that President Obama wasn't born in the U.S. He promised that he had amazing evidence uncovered in Hawaii by his investigators that never was revealed after Obama released his birth certificate. Although you will surely disagree, denying that our first African American (albeit half) wasn't even a citizen of the US was widely touted by experts on racism as being such. Furthermore, he implied that President Obama's academic profile implying that he was academically unworthy and benefited from affirmative action.
2. On his support from David Duke (former KKK grand wizard) he said that he didn't know anything about white supremacists or Duke and couldn't condemn a group he hadn't researched. To be fair, though, he later said that he does disavow David Duke and had an excuse why he didn't do so initially (a bad ear piece that was working just fine for the rest of an interview).
3. The Trump campaign selected a white nationalist leader (William Johnson) as a delegate in California although this was later withdrawn when it hit the press.
4. After two men beat up a homeless Latino man earlier this year they told police officers that "Donald Trump was right - all these illegals need to be deported." Trump responded that the two men simply got carried away. Specifically he said, “I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.” That isn't passion folks, that's a racist beating being excused by Donald Trump.
5. On Judge Curiel presiding over the Trump University case: "He’s a Mexican,” “We’re building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings — rulings that people can’t even believe." Note that Judge Curiel is an American, not a Mexican although his parents emigrated from Mexico before he was born. Paul Ryan's response to the comment from Donald; "Claiming a person can’t do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment”.
6. Donald supported the beating of a black lives matter protestor at one of his rallies. Trump said, "Maybe he should have been roughed up.” “It was absolutely disgusting what he was doing.” Note that the guy was only chanting "black lives matter". Does that really deserve a beating?
7. In 1989, Trump paid $85K to take out an ad after black and latino teens were arrested for the rape of jogger in Central Park. The ad said "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY. BRING BACK OUR POLICE!" These teens were convicted, but as it turns out they were innocent and released years later based on DNA evidence that was invented later. In 2013, Trump tweeted on this topic "Tell me, what were they doing in the Park, playing checkers?" I'm pretty darn sure he didn't put out ads against any white guys accused of raping someone, but I'm open to being proven wrong.
8. There are tons of small examples such as his May 5th tweet with him eating a taco bowl and tweeting "Happy #CincoDeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!" Jeb Bush's response was “It’s like eating a watermelon and saying ‘I love African-Americans.'” I won't even bother to list all of the times he said something like "look at my African American over here", because anyone can unintentionally say something that sounds racist, but considering such quips among his other more detailed remarks . . .
9. The Justice Department sued his Trump Management Company for racial discrimination twice for not renting apartments in NY to African Americans. In the second suit, they simply told African Americans that apartments weren't available. Despite this, Trump said in later years "“I have a great relationship with the blacks.” “I’ve always had a great relationship with the blacks.”
10. Trump said to a group of Jews at the Republican Jewish Coalition "Is there anyone who doesn’t renegotiate deals in this room? Perhaps more than any room I’ve spoken to.” Then he said "You’re not going to support me, because I don’t want your money. You want to control your own politician.” Although not the worst example of his racism, broad-brushing a group of Jews as not living up to their agreements and then accusing them of using their riches to own politicians is racist.
11. Trump has been quoted by his senior (and junior) employees many times with racist comments and actions. Trump was quoted by his former president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino as saying "Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys wearing yarmulkes… Those are the only kind of people I want counting my money. Nobody else…Besides that, I tell you something else. I think that’s guy’s lazy. And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks." Trump later said that the book where this quote was printed was "probably true", but has denied it at other times. Employees at his casino have also claimed that the African American dealers were taken off the floor when Donald and his wife at the time stopped by.
12. Along the corporate lines, his lack of African American or Hispanic executives, although not blatantly racist, does add further smoke to the already burning dumpster fire described above.

I don't need any more ammo. As you said, this has been a one sided argument and isn't evolving.

I accept your surrender.

The correct word is defer. I have given you multiple opportunities to defend your position and you choose not to or are simply unable. You have been the one to try to deflect this discussion and I am not willing to be lead astray as if, as you claim, it has been "fully addressed.

You mean defer like Donald has done regarding his tax returns being made public? Will it sting to write an federal income tax check knowing that Donald likely hasn't paid such taxes for (16?) years?

In any case, I've answered all of your points yet again. Just because you don't agree (which of course I would not expect) doesn't mean that it wasn't addressed. You've deflected (or deferred) on points you didn't feel like answering several times in this thread including not responding the donald's comments on climate change as well as not backing up the statement you made earlier "Obama has undermined the rule of law, supported criminals and invited terrorists into the White House" with any facts. In any case, I'm just calling you out on it. If you can't defend it, just admit it and I'll drop it.

[planters]

I'm admit that I'm stunned that you think you would have made it through inner-city public school and done even better than you have.

You don't know where I went to school. It was a pretty rough area, but this is irrelevant. The point remains that if your hypothetical "poor black child" had the same capabilities and the same family support, that institutional bias still favors him. These institutions do not favor "white males. They should not favor either race, but should favor merit.

I'm not going to paste your entire list as this is simply redundant and it is quite long. Anyone can refer above to your post.

#1 You make the false assumption that Trump's "birther" issue is racially based. It could be, but it could also not be. It is based on Obama's very sketchy origins, his alien father, the father's abandonment, his early childhood in Indonesia and then his upbringing by his grandparents. His parents met in a college communism class and doubts about his self described status is bolstered by the secrecy surrounding his college application.

#2 Hillery Clinton was endorsed by the American Communist party. You are suggesting that if sketchy people think your great that you must endorse them. John Hinckely had a crush on Jodi Foster...better keep an eye on her, she might be oiling her guns as we speak.

#3 He was withdrawn as soon as he was identified. He was not defended or excused. Silly example.

#4

“I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.

He followed with a tweet that "this was terrible" Both are true.

#5 This was a stupid thing to say. He blew this.

#6 They did not beat him up and Trump should have not even have joked about it. But with all the violence being committed and called for by the "Black Lives Matter"group it is understandable that many, many people feel they deserve it. They have not earned the civilized behavior that legitimate political organizations should expect. (see below)

#7 "you may be sure", but that is not any kind of proof. I could be just "as sure"...that it was irrelevant.

#8 Not worth a response.

#9 Twice? Two whole times? How many apartments does his management company cover? One, two... ten thousand? Boy, this is surely a pattern we see developing, what a bastard. Ever run a property management company? I have. Given enough clients and properties you will see just about every kind of situation and just about every conceivable excuse for it. To have investigated Trump's past history with such a microscope suggests a monumental effort to derail him. Look that deeply into anyone's past and you will find all you need to establish the narrative to destroy them.

#10 Nothing he said was untrue and you might want to think about this a little longer, nothing he said was derogatory.

#11 See #9. He has had tens of thousands of employees many love and many hate him. Many would lie to protect and others to destroy him. Never met a bitter or untruthful coworker?

#12 No it doesn't. He hires the best he can find as we all do. If I can find a better, smarter, more motivated employee, I am not going to pass them up because of their race, sex or religion. I want to succeed and Trump has been much more successful than I, at least financially

I accept your surrender.

No you don't It wasn't offered. I was becoming exasperated by your continual dependence on anecdotal experience to support your contention. You were offering yet a fourth example without any real proofs or arguments. I'm not going to continue to fight an unarmed man. But, seriously, you really haven't made an argument. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you understand why this is so.

You've deflected (or deferred)

Wrong again! You deflected as in you redirected the thread in the middle of this topic to introduce (reintroduce) global warming. Twice. This, as I said was not even tangentially related to the current topic. That is deflection. Now, I deferred, as I explained (gasp) as in once this is resolved, then I am willing to move on. It's not deferred, deflected, deferred...ohh whatever. Words do mean things.

"Obama has undermined the rule of law, supported criminals and invited terrorists into the White House"

Obama has instructed the Border patrols to ignore immigration laws. He has instructed his justice department not to pursue sanctuary cities. Federal funds could be withheld from these cities for interfering with ICE.

Rick Ross
Rasheen Aldridge

Black Lives Matter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xet3BnwLtek

[Finale]

Donald spent years saying that President Obama wasn't born in the U.S...Although you will surely disagree, denying that our first African American (albeit half) wasn't even a citizen of the US was widely touted by experts on racism as being such.

Criticising someone for something not related to their race does not make you a racist.

On his support from David Duke (former KKK grand wizard) he said that he didn't know anything about white supremacists or Duke and couldn't condemn a group he hadn't researched. To be fair, though, he later said that he does disavow David Duke and had an excuse why he didn't do so initially (a bad ear piece that was working just fine for the rest of an interview).

Lying and being a racist is not the same. Lying about something related to racism doesn't make you a racist either.

The Trump campaign selected a white nationalist leader (William Johnson) as a delegate in California although this was later withdrawn when it hit the press.

Hiring a racist(?) does not make you a racist.

After two men beat up a homeless Latino man earlier this year they told police officers that "Donald Trump was right - all these illegals need to be deported." Trump responded that the two men simply got carried away. Specifically he said, “I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.” That isn't passion folks, that's a racist beating being excused by Donald Trump.

Racists can be passionate like anyone else. Mentioning their passion rather than racism does not make you a racist.

On Judge Curiel presiding over the Trump University case: "He’s a Mexican,” “We’re building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings — rulings that people can’t even believe." Note that Judge Curiel is an American, not a Mexican although his parents emigrated from Mexico before he was born.

Mexican can mean a person from Mexico or from Mexican descent.
Claiming someone can be biased because of their race or ethnicity about a subject relating to their race or ethnicity is not only not racist, but also logical.

Paul Ryan's response to the comment from Donald; "Claiming a person can’t do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment”.

Appeal to authority.

Donald supported the beating of a black lives matter protestor at one of his rallies. Trump said, "Maybe he should have been roughed up.” “It was absolutely disgusting what he was doing.” Note that the guy was only chanting "black lives matter". Does that really deserve a beating?

Whether it deserves a beating or not is irrelevant to whether this is racist or not.
Being against a subgroup does not mean you are against the whole. And even then not all BLM members are black.

In 1989, Trump paid $85K to take out an ad after black and latino teens were arrested for the rape of jogger in Central Park. The ad said "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY. BRING BACK OUR POLICE!" These teens were convicted, but as it turns out they were innocent and released years later based on DNA evidence that was invented later. In 2013, Trump tweeted on this topic "Tell me, what were they doing in the Park, playing checkers?" I'm pretty darn sure he didn't put out ads against any white guys accused of raping someone, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

Accusing someone for something not related to their race does not make you a racist.
Nobody has to prove you wrong on this, the burden of proof is on you.

There are tons of small examples such as his May 5th tweet with him eating a taco bowl and tweeting "Happy #CincoDeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!"

Saying you love some race or ethnicity because you love something that they invented does not make you a racist. There is no prejudice or discrimination here. The same way if someone says they love Japan or japanese when they eat sushi does not make them racist, it means they are thankful for the race or ethnicity or nationality for coming up with that.
The watermelon example is a wrong analogy because the watermelons were created by nature, tacos are a traditional mexican dish...

Jeb Bush's response was “It’s like eating a watermelon and saying ‘I love African-Americans.'” I won't even bother to list all of the times he said something like "look at my African American over here"

Appeal to authority.

The Justice Department sued his Trump Management Company for racial discrimination twice for not renting apartments in NY to African Americans. In the second suit, they simply told African Americans that apartments weren't available.

Being sued for racism does not make you a racist.

Trump said to a group of Jews at the Republican Jewish Coalition "Is there anyone who doesn’t renegotiate deals in this room? Perhaps more than any room I’ve spoken to.” Then he said "You’re not going to support me, because I don’t want your money. You want to control your own politician.” Although not the worst example of his racism, broad-brushing a group of Jews as not living up to their agreements and then accusing them of using their riches to own politicians is racist.

"Perhaps more", not all, therefore not racism.
The same way statistics aren't racist.

Trump has been quoted by his senior (and junior) employees many times with racist comments and actions. Trump was quoted by his former president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino as saying "Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys wearing yarmulkes… Those are the only kind of people I want counting my money. Nobody else…Besides that, I tell you something else. I think that’s guy’s lazy. And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks." Trump later said that the book where this quote was printed was "probably true", but has denied it at other times. Employees at his casino have also claimed that the African American dealers were taken off the floor when Donald and his wife at the time stopped by.

Anecdotal evidence.

Along the corporate lines, his lack of African American or Hispanic executives, although not blatantly racist, does add further smoke to the already burning dumpster fire described above.

Since I address all the points above, nothing to add here.

[JohnYayas]

dkumpula, do you really believe those things to be racist or are you just saying them because it is the exact same thing the leftist media has been saying. At least with the media you know they are full of shit so I am wondering where you are coming from.