[HELP] Build a laser system, please help me to chose right equipment, thanks!

[Barabba]

Hi all, thank you a lot for posting your experience here, quite huge question I figured out, but I'll try to be as brief and accurate as possible.

I've a small club, showed on picture, the red triangle shows the area where the laser is supposed to work, picture is just to give an idea and suggest properly, no measures are strict for the final goal, we may say laser should cover a distance of about 10 meters with all other lights off/reduced (consider this for suggesting a proper power) and angle should be at least 40°. The laser will be placed at about 2,50 meters from floor.
The consolle contains a laptop wit Win7 and Martin Lightjockey (with USB to DMX interface), this laptop is supposed to run also the program for create light effects.
I'm in Russia, here there are no strict legalization/parameters against use lasers in club, unless I'll accidentally light the eyes of people with a direct beam there will not be complains, so no problems.



I would like to buy an RGB laser, not expensive but with good/acceptable quality, for create custom light effects and rudimental writes (letters) and logos (I'll place a thin net over the roof for that). The laser should be driven by a dmx command (I suppose there are chances to address programs with two bytes (aka 2 dmx addresses), to have more then 256 possibilities. Now, to accomplish goals and spend as less as possible I guess I have these options:

FIRST) please suggest me a proper power, I suppose a 500mW or 1000mW will be enough.

1) Find a proper (power and notbad quality) laser with ILDA, DMX and an SD card to store custom sequences. There will be maybe the limitation of DMX addressing (I need more then 256 programs, I suppose, but if double the cost I'll choose to have a 256 limitation) and eventually limitations on store the program to SD card (I've not experience about that, maybe I can be wrong and it's possible to save big sequences without problems). This solution is welcome only if it is more convenient than the following ones, consider I've to buy also a ILDA to USB adapter, because I've to bring the laptop close to the laser every time I would create a new sequence.

2) Buy an Ether-dream with DMX extension, place it next to laser and drive Ether-dream by ethernet cable, buy a less expensive laser with (at least) only ILDA, use a software that can support ethernet live controlling (please see the below the software requisites), store the edited sequence on SD and address with DMX more of 256 programs (which is the limitation of Ether-dream?). The ethernet will be 100mbit, is that ok? Average how much space a sequence use in SD card?
Once sequences are stored I'll use only Lightjockey to manage the laser by DMX. This solution let me keep the laptop always in consolle.

3) Find a laser with ethernet port only (or buy ILDA over ethernet adapter, compatible with software, or buy an ILDA to usb and use USB extenders, as I undersood I can go up to 50 meters with USB using chain of extenders.. if it cost less then ethernet to ILDA), run always the software on the laptop and change sequences somehow: it's a topic to be investigate, one solution can be buy an usb/dmx-in that software can recognize, or with Lightjockey there may chances to execute a .exe file, or whatever, it depends also from software features.. maybe u know about that. This can be the less expensive solution.

Which software let me the chance to find an good variety of effects already shared between the community? Does the software require a lot on terms of CPU and RAM?

Thank you a lot for answers!!!

[Bradfo69]

We started to address this in this thread: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...677#post329677
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And now that there is more information including where you are from and a drawing of what you're looking to do, I have a couple more questions. First, you indicated this is mainly for logos and text. Are you anticipating using it for beam show work as well?
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I would have to assume there is DMX running from the console to the lights you're controlling with Light Jockey. Are those lights in the vicinity of the proposed laser projector? I'm asking so I know if it's feasible to run either an Ethernet cable or, even an ILDA cable from the console to the projector, just following the DMX. I think you are perhaps making this mentally harder than it needs to be but, I'm trying to get the full picture.

[Barabba]

These are the kind of effects I would like to implement (and find a popular software where I can find those already shared), and I consider the powerful/quantity of light adeguate, how many milliwatt could it be?
Thank you

[Barabba]

We started to address this in this thread: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...677#post329677
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And now that there is more information including where you are from and a drawing of what you're looking to do, I have a couple more questions. First, you indicated this is mainly for logos and text. Are you anticipating using it for beam show work as well?
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I would have to assume there is DMX running from the console to the lights you're controlling with Light Jockey. Are those lights in the vicinity of the proposed laser projector? I'm asking so I know if it's feasible to run either an Ethernet cable or, even an ILDA cable from the console to the projector, just following the DMX. I think you are perhaps making this mentally harder than it needs to be but, I'm trying to get the full picture.

Hi!!!! Please apologize me for doubling the thread (here anyway more accurate) cause mixedgas suggested me to do so, probably here more pople can support. Yes I read all you wrote there and I'm going to write there too, that I moved here. I hope this topic may be interesting to everyone who is approacing the laser show in their clubs, I think contains some solutions.

Yes no worries to place other cable next to DMX, it could be ethernet, USB (with extenders) or ILDA (does it has sense to have a 25-30 meters of ILDA? I guess noise can come. If yes, shoudl I use shielded cable or I can use ofr example 3 ethernet cables? It could be cheaper then buy USB extenders). Yes there is a XLR DMX connector already placed where the laser will be installed.
Thanks for help

[Barabba]

I agree with Steve that 500mW may not be enough unless you're just projecting green at a close distance since this is mainly text and logos. Many projectors that have a built in SD card are not particularly of great quality although, there are a couple that I know which are a little better than others. The issue always seems to be getting things written to the SD card. There is also a software/hardware solution that has an SD card built into the DAC (the device that allows the laptop to talk to the projector.) And that is Laserworlds ShowEditor 2015. The DAC itself is designed to be positioned right near the projector and connected to the laptop/computer via ethernet. That might eliminate the need for having the laptop near the projector and trying to run the laptop via DMX.
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In what part of the world are you located? I'm thinking your best bet really is to see if there is a member close to you that can come and help you sort out a solution. There is an awful lot of learning that needs to go into what you are asking, if you want to do this yourself and, it really might just be easier to have someone help.

Yes if I chose the SD way, the equipment which use it shold let me address by DMX the files inside. Moving SD from laptop to laser each time a new sequence is creaded should be avoided, in case i can drive remotely the laser but I can't save remotely on SD.

[Bradfo69]

OK. Thoughts and musings....
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First concerns SD cards in projectors. In general, if you read through this forum a lot, you'll see as I have that a lot of people have had difficulty with the process of getting files into SD cards and getting them to work. Incompatible file formats. What method to trigger them and so forth. That's not to say there aren't some people who are doing it successfully but, it seems like many requests for help, particularly from new people, concern SD cards in cheap Asian projectors and messing with a program called iShow which YOU DO NOT WANT. It's also referred to as iShit for a reason. So, save yourself some headaches and get an SD card out of your mind. For those that do it successfully, please feel free to jump in with a different opinion and experience.
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My personal feeling is also that lighting is lighting and laser is laser. There have been a lot of advances recently in using DMX to trigger things between lighting desks and laser software. Most notably Pangolin's Beyond software tying into GrandMA's and such. I'm not "up" on all of that but, it's also a much more expensive way to go to accomplish what you want to accomplish. I'm sure with large complicated shows with many projectors and lights and other effects, it's been a Godsend. But to run a single projector, my feeling is keep it as simple as possible. And keep it separate, unless you *really* have a need for them to be combined - such as show programming that involves triggering thing and such. I'm guessing you don't.
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I am also assuming you have an operator - maybe even yourself, who is running the Light Jockey. If they are competent enough to run Light Jockey, then they're more than qualified to run Pangolin's Quickshow. Before being bashed by lovers of other software and being described as a fanboy, keep in mind I own and have messed around with most of the major packages out there. Quickshow is a Swiss army knife of a program that will enable you to handle your text on the fly, easily create your logos and make them into cues, play your beam shows, play graphics shows, and do it all with a simple click on a cue grid. It is extremely powerful and easy to use. There is a ton of available show content like the video you posted that you can be up and running with in minutes (although you'll have to obtain the song to go with it yourself for licensing reasons). It also can be running in the background on your laptop while Light Jockey is open in the foreground. I use Chauvet ShowExpress to run my DMX lights and I swap back and forth between them all the time. So... you wont have to walk the laptop back and forth to hook up and transfer things to an SD card or anything of that sort. All of your creation of logos, text, storage of shows and everything can be done right from where the laptop sits now.
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Next is how to get the laptop to "talk" to the laser projector. There are two ways to do that. An FB3 or an FB4 which are both DAC's which is the device that allows the laptop to talk to the laser. To determine which is best, think about two things.... what does your laptop have left available... a USB port or an Ethernet port? And, what type of cable are you willing to run between the laptop and projector? If it's just an open USB port, then go FB3 and run an ILDA cable. If it's an Ethernet port, then perhaps run cat5 and use an FB4. With the FB3, the DAC will usually sit next to the laptop. With an FB4 it can actually be built right into the projector or attached to it. That's not to say you can't have an FB3 next to the projector and run cat5 from the laptop to it but, it introduces other devices like a Startach USB extender which in turn means more expense and, using up more electrical outlets. Why bother?
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So next we tackle the projector. The text and logos and such do not require very much power to be seen well. Your idea of 500mW was fine in that space. BUT.... since you're thinking about beams like in the video above, as Steve said, 500mW isn't going to be all that exciting - unless you use a lot of fog/haze which you really probably don't want to do all night long in a bar every evening. (You'll need to have *some* atmosphere in order to even be able to see anything and I'd suggest a very good quality hazer for that. Something with fine particle size and good hang time, that is quiet and reliable. Don't go cheap on a hazer. You may already have atmosphere covered that's acceptable since you're running other lights with Light Jockey.) But, probably a bit more power would be a good thing. There are a LOT of choices for projector and I'm a fan of several brands. But, based on your proposed situation, I would look at a Kvant Clubmax 1800 with an FB4 bundled with Pangolin's Quickshow and take care of everything in one easy shot. Just add an ethernet cable and you're done. That's probably your best, all around, one shot, get it done solution. Not cheap but not outrageous and, an outstanding value for the money you're going to spend. Spend the money to do it right and do it easy. Watch the Pangolin video tutorials on Quickshow while you wait for it to arrive and you'll be amazed at what all you'll be able to do.
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(God, I sound like Justin! ) Good luck! And now with opposing viewpoints.... read below!

[Datsurb]

Just want to dial in and second everything Brad writes. Barraba is quite specific in what to achieve, and QS with the Clubmax and FB4 deliver accordingly. The companies behind also have good support and will most likely be in business next year.

[Bradfo69]

By the way.... here is a link to what I am talking about. http://lasershowprojector.com/shop/c...1800-with-fb4/
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What I do not know, is quite how an FB4 works with DMX and Artnet and so forth. It's entirely possible that your DMX ideas may be served by this as well. I've not had a need to jump into using an FB4 yet so I can't speak intelligently about that aspect. And, although it doesn't say anything about Quickshow in the ad, the software is essentially free and downloadable from the web site and has free updates for life.

[Barabba]

Thank you guys! I love you!
I answer in order, syrah is it's absolutely a good idea.. and I didn't think about it before.. it has its advantages (safety and probably colour rendering) but I guess works only in really dark conditions.. not that cheap in the end, and missing the brilliant effect of a laser bright beam. I'll install this on the projector we have to test some ILD files


Bradfo69 thank you for big post! I really appreciate your infos and suggestions, this is what I really look for!
I try to reply briefly:

God about SD issues, got about iShit. Compatibility issue is about the ILD files format?

About Quickshow I got it completely, also about Kvant Clubmax 1800 with an FB4, thank you so much about all explanations, I share your point of view.
Let me say that for us 3000$ investment are a lot, especially because I live in Russia after the fall of ruble (now it looks it cost 6000$), customs costs are relevant as well, and we plan also to buy two scanners more to place over the bar for gogo girls. We're going to face bankrupcy ))
The

Searching around I got an idea, that's something you probably feel nasty but I may eavaluate it a bit, cost containing and not that really bad result. You heard for sure about laserboy, now it works on Raspberry, it works with a cheap USB souncard DAC and supports all ILD files..
Well there is a project to address ILD by DMX, using arduino to catch DMX line commands and transfer with I2C bust to Raspberry, number of program, X,Y offset, intensity and so on, sounds really interesting.

There are tons of ILD files ready for use, if I can use an editor to adjust them/design logo I can produce offline, transfer to Raspberry by LAN, and execute them by dmx. What do you think about it? Please don't be to strict, I'm comparing a solution of 3000$ with one about 40+laser cost, I may sacrifice some quality.

Just about evaluating that, which ILD viewer you may reccomend me? I tried the one of Showtacle but it's really heavy for CPU and not optimized code..
There is a lasershow studio edito that can work offline and without hardware? To edit/produce ILD files
I would evaluate to spend money on a laser.. I would follow your suggestion to buy a 1800mW one apprximately (I can always reduce the intensity by controller), may you please suggest me a chinese model (only ILDA is necessary) that you liked more?

Thank you a lot!!

[Bradfo69]

^ All good suggestions that syrah makes. Personally I think you can get away with a lower powered projector but, you're not going to get much below that in terms of cost and Goldenstar is better than most Asian companies. Lightspace makes a better projector and I'd lean towards their Venus II 2.7 watt.
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The Riya DAC is probably the best, low cost solution out there. Etherdream is the next step up at $50 more. Then, at the next level you get into your Moncha's, Quickshows, M3's and such.
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Spaghetti is also a decent program and I know the developer. It's not as full featured as Quickshow but, it's also the difference between a one person operation developing it in his spare time versus a corporation. But Gary is a great guy and would be happy to work with you I'm sure.
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Moncha was the first program and DAC that I bought when I got into this silliness and it still holds a place in my heart but, if you're spending $390 already.... go a few bucks more for Quickshow and FB3. They can be found if you search, for less than the $595 retail price. And the FB4 version is only a touch more. Learning curve and feature set are the main difference between the two.
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Yes, the compatibility with SD cards often boils down to file format.
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This really truthfully boils down to an issue between money and time. It sounds like the money to do this is a big stumbling block and the number one lesson to be learned is... lasers aren't a cheap thing to get into. Get a boat. Get a girlfriend. Learn to fly a plane. All better uses of less money than lasers. But seriously.... being an engineer I'm sure you want to go the complicated cheap route and that's fine. I know James would be thrilled if you used his Laserboy program. And doing things with arduino and raspberry and so forth is probably appealing. I get it... but, at some point you have to weight the value of your time to figure it all out, trouble shoot, try things that don't work and then buy more things that do and in the end.... $595 or less for Quickshow and an FB3 / FB4 may very well be worth it. As far as the projector, sure, go with the Goldenstar. You've now gone from a $3000 solution to $1500 solution in a couple of posts. I suggested the Kvant because this is a business, a club, a public place, a daily use probably and so, you want something with rock solid proven reliability and safety features.