Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 47

Thread: I have some QS to sell

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL - USA
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    HI Clearlight,

    You have a lot of great ideas. Regarding the packaging, at this point I am not convinced that we could come up with something that couldn't be copied. Already our FB3-QS had several extruded and machined parts. It took some effort to pull this off... However, if you know of something clever or unique, we can discuss this offline.

    Regarding your other ideas that amount to what I call "forced registration", we've thought of these too. So far we've tried to avoid doing this, as we want our product to be easily usable out of the box. I'm hoping the combination of public pressure and legal action will keep piracy to a minimum so we don't have to inconvenience legitimate users.

    And regarding your thoughts about the serial number, yes, we too have the same thoughts. Fortunately for us, the serial numbers that they are using are kind of known to us (already of registered users) and so it becomes really obvious when someone who just purchased "QuickShow" and wants to register it is using an already-been-used serial number.

    In any event, I thank you for your thoughts.

    Best regards,

    William Benner

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL - USA
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    By the way, you all might remember that this PL user began by trying to make us all think that he was interested in buying something from a web site called Kim Laser. If you click on his user name and select "view forum posts" you will find the link to this web site:
    http://www.kimlaser.com

    I checked this site yesterday when I first saw his post and it was operational. Now, no...

    Nothing suspicious there

    Bill

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,704

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clearlight View Post
    Hi while i don't own pangolin hardware/software - I am willing to offer some ideas.
    Would it be worth changing the packaging and dac case finish to include 'design marks' not easily copied?
    An Authentication key ie: the dac has the serial and a separate pass/boot key is needed to operate? One key could be changed regularly by the pangolin team?
    Is this practical?
    A further solution might be, when a DAC is sold the purchase must be first authenticated by Pangolin to activate the FB3 (cipher key) and again when registering the software. I am unsure of the logistics involved in this approach.
    Regarding publishing the serial numbers. I am not sure how the serial number is embed (chip? eprom?) but releasing the serial numbers would be a strategic weakness and the cloners would just change tact to non banned serials.
    Good ideas but I foresee several issues.

    I thought of a rolling code, car alarm style hardware coded into the FB3 with authentication from the software each time the FB3 is connected. The issue here is could it be hardware coded in a way prevents the source from being copied or read - an issue when the hardware is "pirate side", otherwise a pirate can simply produce a cloned hardware complete with cloned authentication chip. Another possibility is they could download a genuine copy of QS or Beyond and remove the authentication protocol so their own cloned non authentication hardware it works without authentication. No-ones going to know different until someone tries to download another version of the software direct from Pangolin. It may have some effect though.

    Holograms etc have been a traditional deterrent. However, given most of these security items are manufactured in China, none of them are that secure these days. Again, it might work. It depends on how difficult the Hologram is to clone. Maybe there is some US tech that's not available in China that allows elements or colours not found in most holograms.

    Simple packaging marks can be printed by any print works and so are not secure.

    Perhaps a more effective way would be to interrogate the FB3 to reveal it's serial number and have that checked automatically via the internet against a database maintained by Pangolin - so use not only requires a valid licence key but also periodic silent internet authentication (to avoid show issues the software could perhaps retry every day over eg 3 weeks and only shut down if the authentication didn't occur within a set period). Maybe a hardware signature could also be generated PC style and checked at the same time, to check that all the main components are of the correct spec. That might identify rogue numbers / duplicates and if there is some way of then bricking the hardware (give that they're cheap clones, I assume the hardware contents are the same, just not the same quality so there may be a method), you could brick them or alternatively you could just make the software ignore it if it failed authentication. Regular software forced auto updates to the authentication code could get ahead of altered software. Only issue with any of this, is cost and what happens if a genuine product mis-authenticates at a vital time eg hours before a show.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    39

    Default

    When reading this thread, someone could think that this all happened to you the first time, Bill.
    Have you ever thought that you would be "immune" against product piracy? I hope not.
    Welcome to the "club of victims" :-)

    This may sound a bit sarcastic, but it is bad reality. It happened to me and many others years ago and it will happen also in the future.
    If you think me or others (as competitors) find all this nice and are laughing about this happened to Bill, you are wrong.
    The reason: If you can purchase a QS for 300$ or maybe much less, also ours and EVERYBODYs products are less interesting for customers, because of the price difference.
    Why buying xyz for 250$ or even $200, if I can buy Pangolin QS for 200?
    So every company is involved once a product was copied! It is really tragic that a company like Pangolin is not able to protect their products in a adequate way!
    :-(


    Joachim
    Producer of EasyLase USB and NetLase
    Lasershow software DYNAMICS

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by White-Light View Post
    Perhaps a more effective way would be to interrogate the FB3 to reveal it's serial number and have that checked automatically via the internet against a database maintained by Pangolin
    The problem with this is that show companies frequently own multiple controllers, including several backups. So let's say you're packing up for a show and you pull out one of the controllers that hasn't been used in a while. Now suddenly that controller won't work unless you can connect to the Internet on the show site. Believe it or not, this can be a huge issue.

    I haven't done a large number of shows, but I've done enough that I've run into no Internet - and even no cell phone coverage - at three different show locations in just the past two years. If this "phone home" feature had been present, I would not have been able to run the equipment.

    OK - I get it - you hook it up in the shop before you leave for the show so it can phone home, and then you rely on the grace period to get you through the show. But what if someone forgets that crucial step?

    My FB3s are actually my backup controllers. I do all my regular work with QM 2000's. So my FB3s often sit in a bag for many months before they ever get hooked up. If this could be a problem for me, then I'm sure it would affect lots of other people as well.

    As an aside, it appears that the FB3s I purchased from Goldenstar were legitimate products after all.

    Adam

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    1 hr from everything in SoCal
    Posts
    2,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    My FB3s are actually my backup controllers. I do all my regular work with QM 2000's. So my FB3s often sit in a bag for many months before they ever get hooked up. If this could be a problem for me, then I'm sure it would affect lots of other people as well.
    Not to mention air-gapped PCs. Mine technically isn't air-gapped but I rarely ever connect it to the internet. In the middle of a show, the last thing I want is a pop-up for windows updates or adobe flash updater or something like that. Most of these wouldn't affect the software that is currently running but those popups can be intrusive, especially for touch screen. So again, being "online" all the time seems way too involved.
    If you're the smartest person in the room, then you're in the wrong room.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    2,292

    Default

    I hate piracy. I have been burned so I know how it feels to work hard on something and then have someone rip you off like that. But, I am somewhat impressed that they were able to clone an entire device including the firmware. I am somewhat surprised that the market demand is high enough that someone would go to the trouble to do it. I mean, for someone to go to that effort and invest the money to have the boards made, populated, firmware burned, cases made, painted, logoed, packaged etc, must have cost a considerable amount of time and money. So, it must be quite worth their effort to do so and then sell a couple hundred less than Pangolin. That seems to indicate the laser show business is stronger than I thought.

    Anyway, as far as combating the problem goes... once the flood gates are open its hard to stop the water unless you can stop the source. If all the details of how to reproduce these things is out then it wont be contained... not in China anyway. You might be able to stop Chinese products from being sold here but you can't really stop them from being sold in China because you won't even know it is being done. Even a giant like Microsoft can't contain it. My suggestion is to evolve your product so that it becomes obvious that to a seller that they aren't buying the latest thing. If your product looks or is exactly the same as it did 5 years ago, obviously (as seen) it will be copied and people can't tell that they are buying copies. I'm assuming you can update the firmware and software so that it has to be reregistered and authenticated but of course that won't stop China from selling old versions or people who have fake versions from simply continuing to use the old version.

    Good luck.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Right. Once the door is open, it is very hard, or nearly impossible, to close it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    But, I am somewhat impressed that they were able to clone an entire device including the firmware.
    Do you really think it is a problem for them to copy a nearly 10 years old board design using a kind of 8051- or ARM based processor?
    Personally, I AM IMPRESSED that it took so long time!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    I mean, for someone to go to that effort and invest the money to have the boards made, populated, firmware burned, cases made, painted, logoed, packaged etc, must have cost a considerable amount of time and money.
    I think you have no idea what products REALLY cost in China. :-)
    Since the "big" companies get more and more influence in China, many pirates concentrate on niche market.
    The risk that a relative "small" company like Pangolin spends tenthousands of Dollars as well as the time to hunt these guys seems lower for them.

    Joachim
    Producer of EasyLase USB and NetLase
    Lasershow software DYNAMICS

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    884

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Nevertheless, if you have one, contact us. Obviously it serves as evidence, and in addition to that, we are trying to figure out some alternative to "sorry you've lost all of your money". We'd love to hear from the community about the best way to deal with this -- something that is really fair to everyone (including Pangolin -- remember folks we SPEND MONEY to develop these products, so if a customer obtains a counterfeit, we have SPENT money, not received it...)
    I fell victim to counterfeit software a few years ago. I bought a copy of Microsoft Office 2010 from a local guy on Craigslist for $100. He seemed legit, and the product was indistinguishable (to me) from real -- holograms and license key stickers and all. He said they were handed out at a MS Training seminar, which I know happens.

    We agreed to meet at a Starbucks at Grand Central Terminal in NYC... but just as I got there, I got a text from him saying he was downstairs at the food court because there were no seats at Starbucks. Whatever. It didn't occur to me until much later that there were two NYPD officers at the Starbucks, so that probably freaked him out. Me? Didn't set off any red flags. I gave him my $100 and went home happy that I saved >$200 on the software. Until I got home and it wouldn't install.

    To make a long story short, MS has a counterfeit program where you can apply for credit or replacement software if you are sold counterfeit software. I applied for this program and sent them the entire package (DVD, case, license key, etc) and a detailed account of the transaction and email logs. I got a reply that in effect said "since you didn't spend a lot on the counterfeit software, you do not qualify for a credit or comp replacement". Turns out, if I had told them I spent $200 or more for the counterfeit software, they would have sent me a full copy for free. Now that's pretty messed up if you ask me, I didn't spend *enough* for the software. I was also honest with them, I could have just said I spent $200 in cash. There were no receipts, of course. I took the time to help them by sending in the material and the details (at my cost, too), and all I get back in return was a big FU YOU LOSER HA HA HA! So I got screwed twice, by the original seller and again by Microsoft. I ended up buying MS Office for full price from Amazon.

    But to Bill's point above, since QS/FB3s and MS OFfice are about in the same price range, if someone helps and sends you their a counterfeit device, even a modest discount towards a legit product replacement (sold directly from Pangolin), say $50 or $100 off of MSRP (likely still above your wholesale price or actual cost), would go a long way to ease the pain of getting screwed by the original seller. And I'd also suggest no tricks or games around a discount or credit, like "$50 off your *next* Pangolin purchase".

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    veenwouden
    Posts
    2,580

    Default

    Jojo i,m totally with you on this one. China will do anyting if there is a few bucks to be made and labour and parts are dirt cheap. That is what the low end market wants isn,t it? For example Eightonlight has copied Kvant projectors in such away that their is hardly no difference at all between the 2. Check a module inside and they are virtiually the same. The funny thing is that Mr brenner bennefits from this because he sells even more packages of quickshow this way. People in the lower market want to have things dirt cheap and buy from chinese companies because their Local dealer makes a few bucks on it. So think again before you buy from china i would say.

    But lets turn it arround for a sec, lets say a big company has bought a product from a small company and see,s the potential so they copy it 1 tot 1. Even if the small company takes the bigger company to court it is a waste of money , effort and time because the big company will win always because they have endless money to finance advocates. Stealing is on every level that is for sure.

    John has a good point, i think its time to change the design as joachim says a 10 year old structure is easy to copy and that is the only way to stay ahead of the game.


    Interested in 6-12W RGB projectors with low divergence? Contact me by PM!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •