Hope this isn't controversial... Video showing EMS8000 with 6mm mirrors

[Pangolin]

Hi folks,

I realize that there is always a kind of "hazard" with doing a review of a competitors' product, but I mostly do this sort of thing to combat misinformation in the marketplace. (Furthermore, other companies are always free to do their own video reviews and comparisons if they want...)

Over the years there have surely been exaggerated claims of one form or another (usually beam size or scan speed or both), and since we endeavor to always tell the truth about what our own scanners do, we're almost always at a disadvantage, since exaggerations are always a whole lot more impressive than the truth...

Nevertheless I am happy to report that these particular scanners were advertised as being able to work with 6mm beams and -- from the standpoint of beam size alone, they will actually do that! Half joking, I'd say that I'm not sure if this sudden rush to truth was encouraged by the "mirror sizing" chapter of my book or simply the periodic razzing in public, but in any event I am happy to see when products actually live up to their advertisements.

I don't know if these scanners are advertised as being able to go faster than 30K with 6mm or not because, in fact, these scanners and this configuration isn't even being advertised at all. However, I *thought* I saw projector manufacturers claiming something around 60K with these scanners.

In any event, the video can be seen here:
https://youtu.be/958aGuL4sFE

Personally I'd say that they're fine for beam shows, but I don't expect them to win any awards for graphics, and I'd be very skeptical if there are any claims of greater than 30K performance -- based not only on what I'm seeing in the projected image, but also the laws of physics, given the specifications that are clearly presented.

Civil comments and questions are welcome

Best regards,

William Benner

[-bart-]

picardfacepalm.gif

[Pangolin]

I'll see your face palm and raise you another face palm:

[swamidog]

i hate to bow to peer pressure, but i do love star trek memes.

[dkumpula]

OK, since no one else it taking the bait, I will.

First, this was interesting, Bill, as all your talks are. I appreciate you sharing this kind of information. A couple questions, though. I don't own a set of EMS scanners, but aren't those amps and galvos supposed to be tied down to a base-plate before pushing them? (These aren't cool running 506's we are talking about, 'ya know!) Do you think this had any impact on their performance? I know it wouldn't make a difference for mirror resonances and such, but are you sure heat wasn't a factor with them cutting out when scanning wide at 30Kpps? If not, its interesting to note that they may be helped by a PSU upgrade.

Performance aside, one thing that I assume Eyemagic has in its favor is availability. I think the EMS-8000s been available for years and I'd bet that if I put my money down, I'd have a set in my hands within a week. (Fair warning, there is a set-up coming. ) Just pulling dates out of the air . . if someone - let's say a random US based customer who owns 7 sets of 506's and lots of other Pangolin products - placed an order for a set of Saturn 1bs back on August 15th . . when would such person receive said product?? <cough cough>

Now just because I know you can take a bit of good-natured ribbing, may I point out that if Pangolin's CEO wasn't posting reviews of competitors products, he might have more time to produce Pangolin products? To any others that might be reading this, I just heard yesterday that you just trained another of your bright colleagues to make the Saturn 1bs and I have no doubt that this will hopefully free said CEO to do other things . . like say finish the Mach Mini . . or the next version of QS/Beyond . . or that cool Christmas thingy from three years ago or . . (Sorry, this is like shooting fish in a barrel!)

Bottom line is that I'm sold on Scannermax and just about every Pangolin product. Like anything else though, we all want More/Faster/Better/Cheaper.

Warmest Regards,

-David

[Pangolin]

i hate to bow to peer pressure, but i do love star trek memes.

WOW, cool!!! Good one!!

aren't those amps and galvos supposed to be tied down to a base-plate before pushing them?

<snip>

Do you think this had any impact on their performance? I know it wouldn't make a difference for mirror resonances and such, but are you sure heat wasn't a factor with them cutting out when scanning wide at 30Kpps?

Well that's a great question, and at first that's what I assumed too. But if it was a heat problem it would have taken longer to happen, and once it cut out it, the cut-out would have lasted longer too. You see, the power amplifiers do have a kind of temperature sensor on them, and once they reach a certain temperature they will shut down. However, they shut down for a number of seconds until the heat sink cooled down, and then they would start back up again.

So your assumption is the same as my assumption, but then once I investigated, I found that these are drawing 2.5 amps to do that test pattern.

I'd also like to clarify one thing based on what you wrote above. You wrote "when scanning wide at 30K". Remember, the cut-out happened at 22 degrees. In my book that's not "wide"...

If not, its interesting to note that they may be helped by a PSU upgrade.

Well what would have been "helped" is that they wouldn't have shut down at 22 degrees. The image quality would not be affected.

Also, current draw is proportional to image size. So this means the power supply would have had to supply 5 amps just to get to 44 degrees. 7 amps (or so) for 60 degrees. Most people don't have those kind of power supplies laying around...

Performance aside, one thing that I assume Eyemagic has in its favor is availability.

Well you might be right about that. I know, in the past, when we wanted to buy some, it took a long time for delivery. I've heard the same from some clients, but this was perhaps a year ago. I'm not sure what their current delivery schedule is. Nevertheless, if I had to guess, I'd say that you are probably right about that.

HOWEVER, you'd have to take the very first part of your sentence very seriously -- and set "Performance aside". If this level of performance is satisfactory for your application, then fine. For the client that sent us these scanners for a mirror replacement, they're really not happy with the performance. I can say the same about a client in Canada. Basically people come to us when they're not happy with what they can get elsewhere, and more quickly.

I think the EMS-8000s been available for years

I'm not so sure about that David. If you look on PL forum, you'll find discussions of this scanner at around the same time we were shipping C506. I don't think it's quite "years", but it could be that time is merely flying for me...

Just pulling dates out of the air . . if someone - let's say a random US based customer who owns 7 sets of 506's and lots of other Pangolin products - placed an order for a set of Saturn 1bs back on August 15th . . when would such person receive said product?? <cough cough>

Hehe. Well actually David we've had your set of Saturn 1 ready since shortly after SELEM. You and I were engaging in some emails, and then the thread suddenly stopped. I'm still waiting on an answer from you as to whether we're only going to be shipping the S1, or if we're also going to be shipping some other gear so that you can do some work for us. Please pick up the email thread so we can get this settled one way or another. In any event, your S1 are sitting on the shelf and ready to ship.

Now just because I know you can take a bit of good-natured ribbing, may I point out that if Pangolin's CEO wasn't posting reviews of competitors products, he might have more time to produce Pangolin products?

That's an entirely fair point! And ordinarily I don't spend time posting reviews, or even commenting on PL. In this case, I made the video for the client who sent me those scanners, and then decided to make a brief post along with the video. I also believe the updated information is helpful to PL members. In the past, apertures and scan speeds and scan angles have been greatly exaggerated. I'm happy to report that, at least on one front (aperture), advertisements are closer to reality.

Thanks for the civil questions and comments!!

Best regards,

William Benner

[dkumpula]

Fair points, Bill and you know I'm sold on Scannermax products.

Regarding our side discussion, I was going to provide you back some statistics regarding performance on the silvered mirrors with IR and 405nm, but I haven't received them back yet (from X-Laser) in order to test. Regarding the other equipment, I'm about two years behind in projects (more if you include what is on my wife's list for me . . ), so please just send the 1bs for now (Stat!) so I can wrap up that project. Also just to note: I did call Pangolin on Friday, but your note later that note provided an opportunity to poke fun at you that was too hard to resist.

Now back to the mach minis and the Christmas thingy . . How long till we see these??

-David

[planters]

Performance aside, one thing that I assume Eyemagic has in its favor is availability.

I will agree here and go further to say it may be the only thing, but it is important.

I'm going to throw this out there, as I see it; there are two broad classes of users.

There is the manufacturer that tests and decides to order a large quantity of the components they will need to finish a product. And, unless they are simply maintaining inventory for a current product line, they will order all or nearly all of the components at the same time. There can be a lot invested in hardware that sits around and the expertise that isn't being utilized while they wait for a tardy item. A quote always indicates a delivery date (at least an estimated one).

The individual builder can be a hobbyist or a sophisticated researcher, this is not an ego thing in any way. But, they will probably be building up a system progressively. Once they have made the decision about which scanner they want, then they buy it.

Both users want something when they want it, but as I see it, the medical scanner manufacturer might want 10,000, 506's, but could be supplied 100/month, regularly. While the single use consumers want them in dribs and drabs, sporadically. Are the big order customers also finding delivery delays to be problematic?

[Pangolin]

Are the big order customers also finding delivery delays to be problematic?

No, and here's why. The large companies can place a binding purchase order, which allows us (if we need to) to comfortably staff up for a given requirement.

There's another aspect which is that when a single customer places an order for 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 units (the latter we normally simply license to them and have them do the building), we get into "training and support". But this "training and support" is done a single time for the large sale.

In the case of the single-piece hobbyist, the "training and support" is done once -- but for the single order. Moreover the hobbyist will likely ask many more questions, and take a lot longer to get up and running -- thus the cost of providing the "training and support" is higher. So it becomes clear that the support burden is higher for the single-piece order rather than the very large order.

In the mean time, we do what we can to accommodate hobbyists in and among the companies placing large orders. Pieterjan got his within a few days. David would have received similar delivery had email communication not (apparently accidentally) stopped.

Bill

[Pelikan]

Finally! All the magic about Eyemagics is clarified.

Thanks Bill.