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Thread: "green beam" laser for political protest?

  1. #1
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    Default "green beam" laser for political protest?

    It looks like this guy has been using a laser for libertarian oriented political protests:
    http://www.copblock.org/21356/greenbeamlaser/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtl2YW0hsN0

    He apparently charges $1500 for one and it's a 1W green laser?
    These were the original instructions:
    https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Maga...-activisim.htm

    Does anyone have suggestions for parts to build something similar/better and more up to date for basic txt and graphics terminated onto a wall like in the video?
    Last edited by TheGibson; 05-16-2017 at 14:01.

  2. #2
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    You did find your way into this forum, so something is moving around in your penthouse. The heading of your post witness of the total lack of knowlage for the potential dangers of lasers. Lasers and public crowds have NOTHING to do to each other. If you want to use laser in a protest, get a 5mw laserpointer that is legal, and swirl it around proclaiming whatever you want to.

    You have not filled out your location in your profile, but from your written english, i guess an english speaking country. All of those have strict regulations using lasers in public areas.

    Your example of a 1watt green laser. A 1000mw laser in a public crowd is madness. A direct hit in an eye with a 1watt laser is guaranteed to case permanent damage, reduction or loss of eyesight.

    So whatever political stand, message you might have, or whatever you protest against, making people blind is not your intention.

    Bottom line is - For your written purpose - FORGET using lasers. Use your voice or a banner.

    None of the members here will help you chasing your idea.

    Datsurb
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  3. #3
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    hi, your post seems to indicate you neither looked at the linked videos nor read my post but merely assumed your own interpretation from the title? If you had looked at the video you would have seen this had nothing to do with crowds of any kind.

    Where in my post are crowds mentioned? Again, there was NO mention of anything regarding crowds!!! Of course that would be stupid.

    To be charitable, I can see how from "political protest" you might have gotten a certain impression, but there is such a thing as protest art. Perhaps that wasn't clear? I can see that. The post did mentioned terminated onto a wall like in the video though.

  4. #4
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    If you want projection protest art without prior permission and co-ordination of the event venue, , rent or hire a Barco or Christie large scale video projector. You'll be safer, you can make your own artwork, and our industry will be better off. Lasers and laser shows require planning, careful safety precautions, and a means to 100 percent ensure the laser beam is two meters minimum from the Audience in the vertical direction, and three meters in the horizontal. Normally that means scaffolding or projecting from an adjacent building window, and with tight security, as lasers are quite hazardous.
    ~
    Now, if your part of the presentation or media committee of a political party hosting a national party convention or a regional meeting in a planned, controlled, venue, most people here would be glad to rent out their services.
    ~
    But putting lasers some place where the venue can turn into an angry mob or be repurposed as a blinding weapon is bad for a technological industry that very much depends on a controlled, civil, safety culture based on science and engineering.
    ~
    No one in his right mind puts a one watt or more pointer or laser show projector, at ground level, on a unsecured short stand into a impromptu political protest. Especially if it ends up aimed at the police or news helicopter or other vehicle and flashblinds the pilots. Or if it falls over and hits some one in the eye. Yes, I looked at the linked pictures, and no, I'm not happy about a temporary install where some young kid could just walk up and put their face or hands into the beam.
    ~
    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 05-17-2017 at 07:51.
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    I saw the vid at the bottom of the first link.. it looks super dangerous and unstable. Guy in vid sounded american.. did he get a permit for this public projection?

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    While this is hardly libertarian, due to human nature and or lack of professional training, in most of the world you have to pull a permit or have a license of some sort for display lasers.
    Most liberals I've met would really have a doctor that had seven years of medical school, an internship, and a license. They would like their airliner pilot to have enough hours of training, hours of flight experience, and a license to ensure they are healthy and sane before taking 200-300 passengers from A to B. So its the same thing for lasers. In the US, the rules require a FDA Variance for public laser display. Often that is sadly ignored, due to other enforcement priorities. Suffice it to say, lasers are dangerous. Few incidents are documented, but I would be glad to post links to retinal pictures of laser hobbyists who have had injuries from simple mistakes.

    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGibson View Post
    your post seems to indicate you neither looked at the linked videos nor read my post but merely assumed your own interpretation from the title?
    The third link in your post shows an illegal laser product manufacturer operating without a variance selling un-certified and non-compliant products to the public, and advocating that they be used without a variance in public.

    There are at least 5 broad categories of FEDERAL laser regulation violations in that sentence above. Just pause and let that sink in for a moment. Now perhaps you understand the reaction from Datsturb and others.

    This is not about civil disobedience or protest art. This is about someone who is ignorant of the rules (Freedoms Phoenix) encouraging the general public (most of whom are equally ignorant of the rules) to engage in behavior that is both illegal and potentially very dangerous, and then you're here trying to justify it while *also* being ignorant of the law.

    Note that this sort of thing makes the rest of the laser industry look bad, and that can have long lasting consequences. This is why it angers many laser professionals. And finally, arguing with people you asked for help after they tell you that what you're advocating is illegal and unsafe is not the best way to make friends...

    Bottom line: follow Steve's advice... Use a video projector instead. Safer, easier, LEGAL (at least as far as the display technology, though trespassing may still be an issue) and you can also display much more than just simple lines of text.

    Or, if you are still convinced that the laser projector is the best way to do this, then do it legally. Start by reading 21 CFR 1040.10 and .11 (Note about .11 - what you're talking about here falls under subsection c - Demonstration Laser Product.)

    There is a great deal more to building, testing, selling, and using a laser projector legally than just "no crowds" and "terminated on a wall"...

    Adam

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    I'd stay away from building and using lasers for this just so someone wouldn't report me to the police. In US, that is.
    And Barco or Christie video projectors? Please, it's too expensive and heavy, overkill for this purpose.
    You can just use a 3000-5000 lumen Epson/Optoma/Benq/Hitachi/Panasonic video projector. I've used them for urban video mapping and by looking at the video they should be more than enough and cost less.
    https://www.amazon.com/Optoma-W490-W...dp/B017LVQQY4/
    Or even better, just a LED Gobo.
    Even in a hypothetical scenario where lasers weren't as expensive and weren't dangerous and regulated 1W is too much in my opinion. I've used around 200mW for such small outdoor projections and the brightness was more than enough. 1W or more is probably going to be irritating to look at.
    Last edited by Finale; 05-17-2017 at 14:03.

  9. #9
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    Lightbulb ..Son, what we have here is a Failure to Educate..

    Quote Originally Posted by 10Fenny View Post
    ...Guy in vid sounded american.. did he get a permit for this public projection?
    ...Not only American, but a PL Member.. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...10233-resunltd (..if my 'math' is correct..) Heck, I'm even 'PL-Friends' with 'im so.. We should ask!

    ..So, Mr. Resunltd, what sayeth thou? Those 'cop block' performances Varianced? Based on the posts / discussions we've shared in Other threads, and, seeing that 'Activism' (which I - conceptually - wholeheartedly applaud, btw.. ) I should think the answer will be something like 'wt??!'

    ...And - believe me - I Understand the angst over 'moar Regulations' / Gov overreach.. The Whole Rotten Bowl needs to be Flushed, imo. but.. That's not a discussion for this thread.. Point being - I, personally, Get it. However, I, and others in the 'biz', Strongly Support those particular Regs, for One Good Reason (and it's NOT to be a Rules-humper / Nanny-state Fan-boi..) it's The EDUCATION behind the Regs.

    ..Guys, ya gotta remember - Eye Surgery starts at 250mW (and in some applications, less..) and in far, Far shorter exposure durations than CW, even 'modulated' via software, so.. Yeah - saying there Are 'actual Dangers to consider, here' is NOT just law-book thumping.. and THAT's what 'following the Regs', gains a person - Understanding of the Why's and What's of basic Laser Safety, both as to Equipment / Controls, and 'Best Practices', and sorry, but.. That 'Activism' champions neither. Why is that a problem?

    ..Because while You, Mr. Res, may very well Be fully responsible, and safe, in-practice, while doing your 'cop blocking', the problem is, you're Not propagating the Education, to others, correctly. ie: Kudos for your 'Safety Considerations and Regulatory Notice', at the bottom of https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Maga...-activisim.htm ..however, you then 'untie your own bloody shoelaces' - By offering a Clearly non-compliant (and therefore, Illegal..) product... For Sale?! (via the 'contact for details' email, etc..) Sorry, but that is a Major Why?

    ..Well, to prove my point... this Thread, right here, we have the result of that 'failure to propagate the .Edu' - Some 'n00b', seeing your efforts / those articles, and getting aaalll kinds of fired up about doing the same thing.. with No flocking idea of the 'issues' / concerns / Regs, etc. To further the point:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGibson View Post
    ...but there is such a thing as protest art....
    ..but there is NO such thing as an exemption from the Regs / Variance Requirements for public displays - for 'artistic' whatever! Not to mention, the FAA - also - has Reporting Requirements - yes, even for 'Terminated' displays - and they could care less, if it's a Paid Corp show, or for yer kid's Kindergarden 'Art class'... or a protest march starring friggin Moldylocks!

    From the Regs, themselves: (and, Please Bookmark this page, for Ref / Review, and READ This PDF - https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Medica.../UCM119257.pdf - if nothing else..)

    https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitti...m118907.htm#or ..Under the heading of 'Industry Guidance' (...I'm gonna [snip] out most of the text, and (Insert comments) to highlight the salient points..):

    Laser projectors and laser light shows are “demonstration laser products” as defined by 21 CFR 1040.10(b)(13): (as 'Buffo' nicely pointed-out, Thx..)

    “Demonstration laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition.”

    Lasers promoted for entertainment purposes or amusement also meet FDA’s definition for “demonstration laser products.” (note there is really no delineating the whole 'commerce clause', here. Even if you're Not 'getting paid', if it's being Done, In Public, it falls under these Regs jurisdiction..)

    [Snip] ...Laser light show manufacturers must submit a variance request for FDA approval in order to sell and operate higher class (Class IIIb and IV) laser light show equipment. (..which, obviously, a 1W Green, Is..)

    Prior to using Class IIIb and IV lasers for a laser light show in the United States, the following documents must be submitted to the FDA:
    [Snip]

    Your firm can begin to produce laser light shows only after receipt of a variance approval letter from FDA indicating the conditions under which you may produce the laser light show or distribute laser light show projectors.

    ---

    ....So, again - 'Son, what we have here, is a Failure to Educate' - THAT's my only 'beef' with Mr. Res's efforts / those articles, there.. Sorry, but.. a) Should Not be 'offering those For Sale', as-is, Nor those 'plans', and b) that 'Safety / Regs Notice' should be FIRST, not last (imo..) Even if You're 'doing it safe' (which is arguable, seeing those vids.. Sure hope you keep a couple million in Liability ins.. Only takes One car accident to drop a big turd in yer punch-bowl..) you're Not propagating the .Edu, by Not Demonstrating how it's done - Legally - Varianced performances, Compliant gear, proper clearances, etc, etc..

    ..And sure - Good for you, Mr. Gibson - for Asking for direction, first - but.. How many Others, out there.. Aren't / Haven't? How long will it be before some 'Antifa' douchebag decides to 'graduate' from hitting people over the head with bike-locks, or throwing bricks.. To targeting eyeballs / faces with a 1W Green?? There's more 'at stake' than just a targeted-person's Eyesight (which, is bad-enough..) Do you know what 'we all Get' if / when there's a major Incident with Lasers being unsafely used, in public, and that which causes injury or a car / aviation accident? MOAR / STRICTER REGS, which - NONE of us want. And, just because it 'hasn't happened, yet', doesn't mean it Can't, or Won't.

    ..Honestly, the Best way TO 'beat the Man', is to Play the Game by the Rules, and, really - they're no more 'burdensome' than Seat-belts, or other 'rational restraints of personal freedom'.

    Call me a 'Nanny-stater' if ya want, I really don't care. I know what I am doing, personally / behind the scenes, to 'Fight the powers that (shouldn't) be', so your 'labels' don't bother me. But, seeing this 'failure to Educate' - by Not Demonstrating those 'Best Practices' behind the Regs, by Following them - Does.

    .05, Back to the salt mines.. +_+
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 05-17-2017 at 22:43. Reason: sp
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  10. #10
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    Unsure of the scope of the Law in the US but I'd say that warning people of police activity ahead eg a speed trap or checkpoint probably amounts to Obstruction, and that being the case could lead to your laser equipment being seized as evidence. Whether they have to return it to you or whether it can be destroyed I wouldn't know but I'd say probably destroyed unless it's varianced irrespective of any other right to destroy it as I believe if it's not varianced it's illegal for public display use in the US.

    Obstruction: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.76.020

    This is Washington, know in the US law can vary from state to state:


    RCW 9A.76.020
    Obstructing a law enforcement officer.
    (1) A person is guilty of obstructing a law enforcement officer if the person willfully hinders, delays, or obstructs any law enforcement officer in the discharge of his or her official powers or duties.
    (2) "Law enforcement officer" means any general authority, limited authority, or specially commissioned Washington peace officer or federal peace officer as those terms are defined in RCW 10.93.020, and other public officers who are responsible for enforcement of fire, building, zoning, and life and safety codes.
    (3) Obstructing a law enforcement officer is a gross misdemeanor.
    [ 2001 c 308 3. Prior: 1995 c 285 33; 1994 c 196 1; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 9A.76.020.]
    NOTES:
    Purpose—Effective date—2001 c 308: See notes following RCW 9A.76.175.
    Effective date—1995 c 285: See RCW 48.30A.900.
    I'd also have said there's probably a difference between projecting eg. "Be Safe, Avoid the Police" and "Avoid - Police Checkpoint Ahead". One is a political statement / general advice, the other is a direct warning of police activities ahead. Even then the 1st directly prior to a checkpoint might be seen as a warning and the latter in effect.

    So far as the use of laser goes, listen to the advice above. A gust of wind, a loose tripod adjustment screw, physical interference by passers by (even momentarily by eg drunks in high spirits, or teenagers) etc can all lead to beams going from projection into safe terminated areas into being projected into populated or non terminated areas. Then as others have said, there's also the question of losing equipment because of trespass unless you own or have permission from the land owner.

    If you need legal advice, talk to a lawyer. I'm not a US lawyer so the above is my opinion not advice and shouldn't be relied upon. However, the above is just my feeling that you might possibly fall foul of the law and lose your investment irrespective of the dangers of attempting public display from publicly accessible areas.

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