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Thread: Cant seemt to ascertain where the cost is coming from.

  1. #11
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    Another interesting point about this (sorry, but I could go on all day about laser hardware costs) is that there are some weird points in power breakdowns where the cost jumps by a lot due to the nature of diode combining or color balance.

    Let's look at 2 more real world examples.

    Example 1, a 500mW projector will almost always cost the same as a 1W projector, if that 1W projector is blue heavy.

    So a common configuration for low powered projectors these days is to use a set of Single Mode RGB diodes, the most commonly used set meters out at 400-500mW after optics. One trick that is sometimes done to get more power out at a lower cost (and therefore make the laser more attractive when browsing online) is to use a multimode blue instead of singlemode. The multimode blue costs the same or less than the single mode, but you can get way more power out of it. The end result is that it looks like a way better deal to get a 1W projector than a 500mW projector, but if in reality the 1W projector is 700mW of blue mixed with 150 red and 150 green, it's going to look like shit. The beam specifications will also not be properly matched, so even if you turn down the blue diode, you'll get a white core with blue on the outside.

    Example 2, Why you almost never see a balanced 1W projector.

    There are 2 main ways to go about making a 1W projector:
    1. You can PBS 2 500mW single mode diode sets. This looks absolutely incredible. Great beam specs, beautiful color balance, it's a really slick setup. The disadvantage is that it's expensive relative to power level due to the optics required. Very few commercial manufacturers do this because it's hard to explain to non-laser people the benefits and the most of those benefits only really show in real life. Laser beam specs jsut don't translate to video well. I think Kvant had an 800mW for w while that was built this way and I still have no clue how they made any money off of it.

    2. You can use the common multimode RGB set to combine 1 638 red with 1 520 green with 1 445/450 blue. This can produce a good beam with just 3 diodes (or 4-6 if you use the 637 single mode reds) but at this point the system is capable of 1.8-2 watts. As a manufacturer, there's absolutely no reason not to turn these diodes up to this power level and you have a 2W laser which can command a higher price.


    This rabbit hole goes pretty deep, but it's also why most 20W projectors are really 22W, why there are hardly any 4W projectors out there, why once you get over 30 watts everything gets very red light, etc.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vectorfire View Post
    its a shame thought that increasing the hardware count by an order of magnitude only reduces the per diode unit cost by .05$ per mw (0.50 cent quantity break, total).
    Last thing, sorry for spamming your thread.

    This industry is very, very small. If you combined every laser diode that every laser light show projector manufacturer has bought over the past 5 years it would not equal even a single year for someone like casio. Example time!

    Back in the summer of 2010 (may have been 2011, I don't remember), blue laser was expensive. Damn expensive. Expensive enough that when someone started selling 1W blue diodes (just the base semiconductor packages, no optics or electronics beyond the diode) for $450 a bunch of people jumped on the opportunity to get them. About a month after these diodes became available, someone discovered the source. There was a new laser video projector by Casio on the market that used a red LED and a bank of 24 1W blue laser diodes with a phosphor wheel to get green. This was a mid line business projector that only cost around $800.

    Over the course of one summer, 1 watt of 445nm blue went from $800 to $40. All because there was a source for these that dealt in real volume

  3. #13
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    Don't forget that the percentage of dead at birth diodes can be high and dude your labor costs are way low...good for you! Oh and how many times did you have to redesign because a critical component was no longer available. 10 years back 200mw white light was 5k plus scanners

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    I asked similar (understandable) questions back in the day when I was newer and got similar answers, including from araugh's predecessor. This past week at SELEM was a good example of why some of these higher powered projectors cost so much more. You see it for example in X-Laser's Defiant and, in the 25 watt Kvant that was at SELEM or the 18 watt RTI Pico's from a couple years ago with OPSL. You open the cover and just sort of suck in your breath at the level of detail and thought and machining that goes into a projector of that quality. Laserist had it right. High end projectors are art in themselves.
    PM Sent...

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by araugh View Post
    Example 2, Why you almost never see a balanced 1W projector.

    There are 2 main ways to go about making a 1W projector:
    1. You can PBS 2 500mW single mode diode sets. This looks absolutely incredible. Great beam specs, beautiful color balance, it's a really slick setup. The disadvantage is that it's expensive relative to power level due to the optics required. Very few commercial manufacturers do this because it's hard to explain to non-laser people the benefits and the most of those benefits only really show in real life. Laser beam specs jsut don't translate to video well. I think Kvant had an 800mW for w while that was built this way and I still have no clue how they made any money off of it.
    As a hobbyist, I build a lot of these ~1W single-mode builds. You captured the cost/benefits spot-on.

    Before galvos, labor, and overhead, the price for the remaining parts that I purchase for my builds is currently US$1,507. The only people that are willing to pay that kind of money for such low power are the folks that want the best solid-state beam profile that you can buy. (e.g. Graphics projectors for small to medium environments.) They are beautiful IMO, but impractical for most users do to the high cost per mw.

    -David
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  6. #16
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    It's a little sad to be honest. That 1W unit you had with Saturns in the auditorium was INCREDIBLE. One of the best looking outputs I've ever seen from a projector, but I wouldn't expect to see that projector on the market for less than 6K if it was a commercial build.

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    A commercial build might end up costing more than 6 grand, since the cost of the scanners would be nearly half the cost of the projector all by themselves!

    But yeah, some things in this industry are still really expensive. I guess we should be happy that so many other things have come down in price, but every now and then we all get a reminder that lasers are a money pit!

    Adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by araugh View Post
    That 1W unit you had with Saturns in the auditorium was INCREDIBLE. One of the best looking outputs I've ever seen from a projector
    100% agreed. When I saw that beam I fully expected to turn around and see an ion on the balcony. You did a hell of a job with that thing, but as we discussed that day, it definitely takes some work to get something that looks that good.

  9. #19
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    Thanks, guys for the generous comments! These are a bit of an alignment exercise for a non-professional, but nothing compared to the optical work performed in those beautiful stacked higher power plates. Choosing the right colimation lenses and color stack order resulted in a couple redos, but that’s all sorted now.

    This approach may not have quite the beam quality of ions or opsl, but it is more practical in terms of cost and ease of use, and overall size. Hopefully TEM00 diodes will get more powerful soon as to make this approach more appealing to manufacturers of laser projectors. Oh, and of course we need to see an upscaling of Saturn 1 production, so we can all get these beauties in our graphics builds. Hopefully we’ll see all of this in the coming months.

    David
    "Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

  10. #20
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    yes. saturns or ct6215's are a big factor in the awesome projector equation, but they come at a substantial cost penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkumpula View Post
    Thanks, guys for the generous comments! These are a bit of an alignment exercise for a non-professional, but nothing compared to the optical work performed in those beautiful stacked higher power plates. Choosing the right colimation lenses and color stack order resulted in a couple redos, but that’s all sorted now.

    This approach may not have quite the beam quality of ions or opsl, but it is more practical in terms of cost and ease of use, and overall size. Hopefully TEM00 diodes will get more powerful soon as to make this approach more appealing to manufacturers of laser projectors. Oh, and of course we need to see an upscaling of Saturn 1 production, so we can all get these beauties in our graphics builds. Hopefully we’ll see all of this in the coming months.

    David
    suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.

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