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Thread: Music Licensing Questions . . . . .

  1. #1
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    Default Music Licensing Questions . . . . .

    Hi everyone,

    I wonder if anyone can answer some questions about music licensing for me.

    It's my understanding that if you're performing a beam show, you only need a performance license from BMI or ASCAP. The venue or location may have one already but if it doesn't, these can be attained quite easily, I believe. (I noticed that BMI has a dedicated web page for laser shows, and a dedicated application form for laser shows.) If you're doing a show that includes graphics, however, do you technically need a synchronization license? I've read in a few places that a sync license "will be necessary for any type of content where music and moving images are used simultaneously". Or by "moving images", do they mean video, ie.,it means you need a sync license for videoing your show and putting it on youtube, for example, but you don't need a sync license for just performing a graphics show?

    Also, I've also read that musical artists can choose not to have their music used in laser shows. On another thread I read that "there's a reason there aren't any Billy Joel laser shows. . . .it's the artist's choice to not allow that" or something to that effect. Is that the case?

    Another question. In Pangolin Quickshow, for example, you can download and share shows to various famous songs and there's no copyright infringement because each user acquires the audio himself or herself. But there's a concept in copyright law of whether one work of art is "derivative" of another, and if your work is in fact derivative of another you must license the rights from the original work. It's my understanding though, that even if your laser show is precisely choreographed with the rhythm and dynamics of a particular song, and you are in fact actually "basing" your show on someone else's intellectual property, it's not considered "derivative" because you're playing the music in it's original form. Therefore you don't have to worry about your show being derivative. Is all that correct?

    One last question. Let's say hypothetically someone wanted to sell a bunch of shows and they wanted to list the shows they sell on their website. Let's say it was a bunch of classic rock shows. Obviously, they're not selling the audio; the buyer would acquire those files. But just by virtue of listing and selling some files called, for example, "Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin.qshw" and "Money - Pink Floyd.qshw", are the rights-holders of those songs having their rights violated since the website is using the names of the artists and songs on the site, and because it's advertising and selling items named after those artists and songs? And, on a side-note, since there's so many versions of certain songs, could links be legally posted on the website or within the artist's notes in the file, links to where the buyer could acquire the correct versions of the songs so that they sync up perfectly with the show?

    Thanks for reading!

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    Are you legal council for some one and trolling for answers/opinions? Reason being your really getting into the legal side on a first post. As well as adding a specific software product into it this question in a way that kind of opens my eyes wide when I first read it.

    Since your quoting me about Billy Joel... That was for long term planetarium shows where certain artists and certain production companies deny the use of their content when approached or in the past have insisted on sync licenses for long term fixed installations. Such discussions come up when the sponsor in the past was a local radio station. It was an example mentioned at an industry conference long ago. So long ago I can't even remember which one... Nor even remember who gave the presentation on rights...

    By the theoretical construct in your third paragraph, a pre-teen girl dancing to a Brit Spears song at a dance school recital for parents where she was not a paid employee, would almost certainly have to have her choreography approved by Miss Spears and her assignees/manager/producer etc. in advance. Since that doesn't happen, although I'm sure there is case law some place, it makes me curious why your asking.

    Would you like to introduce yourself and tell us why your asking?

    I would take old copyright posts here with the value of a grain of salt, as the Internet has taken off wildly since then, and much of the law has changed.

    A few years after that post, I saw a beautiful licensed outdoor graphics show at an amusement park with "We Didn't Start the Fire", by one Billy Joel...

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 07-24-2020 at 18:08.
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    Thanks for replying Mixedgas,

    I'm not legal counsel, no, but I could see why you ask that. I'm trying to help out my nephew who has a real passion and some talent for lasers and laser shows. He has some reading/writing difficulties so his parents asked me to look into it since I have some experience with DJing, as well as with midi and dmx. His parents want to encourage his interest in this but they also don't want him to get into any legal trouble or anything that might discourage him later down the road. I told them that from what I could tell, I didn't think he'd be able to make any money selling shows for quite awhile, if at all. They still thought if he's allowed to at least try to do it legally he might learn some business skills, as well as helping with his reading and writing.

    I'm sorry if my first post having been about legal issues sent up some red flags; I thought questions like I had would be acceptable on this type of forum.

    I spent hours scouring the web looking for answers to these questions. I learned quite a lot, which I tried to summarize in my initial post. But I still had questions so I thought I'd come here thinking some people might have some answers and others who may have had some of the same questions might be interested.

    Thanks again.

  4. #4
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    Dear Magi,

    The truth of the matter is, music rights is a complex issue. I can tell you that *plenty* of laser shows at theme parks as well as planetariums are done with the venue only having paid ASCAP/BMI, although the show was synchronized. Is that 100000000000000% kosher? Frankly I don't know. But it's been happening for decades, and the venues I'm talking about are super famous, some located in the back yard of record companies and music producers. I would think *someone* -- either in theme park management or outside would start asking questions if if weren't...

    Our LD2000, QuickShow, and BEYOND software are covered by our license agreement, the entirety of which can be found here:
    https://pangolin.com/pages/license-agreement

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Paragraph 8 of our license agreement reads:

    8. MUSIC RIGHTS NOTICE: As part of the Software, shows may be included for which the laser artist has suggested particular songs or music. Pangolin warrants that it has obtained appropriate music rights to any CD tracks, MIDI or waveform files which may be furnished on the Software distribution media (e.g., disks or CD) or download file, and that it has and will maintain the full power and authority to grant the intellectual property and other rights granted herein without the further consent of any third-party. For all other music, including commercial songs, Pangolin and the laser artist do not provide and are not responsible for performance, synchronization, reproduction or any other music-related rights. YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR SECURING ALL NECESSARY MUSIC-RELATED INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS AND CLEARANCES PRIOR TO PLAYING MUSIC IN SYNCHRONIZATION WITH ANY SHOWS INCLUDED WITH THE SOFTWARE, with the exception of music furnished on the Software distribution media or download file.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    The bottom line is that, certainly for commercial music, each person must acquire their own music, and then secure any rights that might be needed to use that music in the intended fashion. What rights are those? Well, all I can say is ask a music-rights attorney.


    Best regards,


    William Benner

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    This is one of those cases where, depending on what you're doing, it is probably more worth your time to make a judgement call and ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission.

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    music rights are complex.. it also varies where you are based.
    What i ended up doing for a while is seeking out the artists to ask explicit permission.. but if their music is released under a label this becomes tricky and sometimes even their agreement alone isnt enough.
    Germany for example is a really tough place for music licensing where things are taken quite far.

    Best thing is just not to include the music with work and let the purchaser deal with the rights of the music when using it in a commercial setting.
    I've broken my neck over the situation too many times and it's so much work to license and sell with audio.

    Regarding the show content creation itself: the laser artist who created that show owns that work (in its entirety too if the frames created for the show were created from scratch without a frame asset pack that was sold to them for live usage).. it's drawn, conceptialised and visualised with the vision of that artist.. that vision is his creative work and therefore goes by original content and not by derivative.
    Not just that: most shows sold in legal writing are still ownership of the artist who created it unless by explicit writing the rights of this content was carried over after it's creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magi View Post
    One last question. Let's say hypothetically someone wanted to sell a bunch of shows and they wanted to list the shows they sell on their website. Let's say it was a bunch of classic rock shows. Obviously, they're not selling the audio; the buyer would acquire those files. But just by virtue of listing and selling some files called, for example, "Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin.qshw" and "Money - Pink Floyd.qshw", are the rights-holders of those songs having their rights violated since the website is using the names of the artists and songs on the site, and because it's advertising and selling items named after those artists and songs? And, on a side-note, since there's so many versions of certain songs, could links be legally posted on the website or within the artist's notes in the file, links to where the buyer could acquire the correct versions of the songs so that they sync up perfectly with the show?
    You could sell them freely but would not be permitted to include the music.. Pointing to the music is appropriate and stating that rights have to be obtained for usage after purchase.
    Usually a no audio include is a good indicator the user did not have permission. Links can be posted to a purchase yes for sure! There are many platforms like bandcamp, beatport which offer legal download links (under certain restrictions). Usually with festival usage license fees are being paid in advance in which the finances for that can be claimed by the artists (but often fail to do so due to confusion of this system).

    Regarding the titles: Probably not much to really enforce there unless it could be accurately linked to a case of defamation or fraudulent/false product sale which harms the reputation of the artist.. at worst the artist can file his name to be removed because words like: Stairway to heaven and Money cannot be copyrighted (as franchises across different fields use the name stairway to heaven too for instance). I would argue and saying restricting a file name to be a legal case is difficult and is probably as stupid as trying to enforce someone writing an album title in a tweet or messenger message.

    Last but not at least: uploading a show to youtube with the audio can create a legal dispute but mostly there are agreements with labels that will just result in ads to be placed on your video.. ads that benefit the label and indirectly the artist.
    Last edited by masterpj; 07-25-2020 at 07:41.

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    Looks like BMI finally decided to make it easy for permanent venues:

    https://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/13.pdf

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 07-25-2020 at 10:50.
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    I once tried to obtain rights and permissions for a four song show for up to 20,000 visitors on New Years Eve. It was difficult to even get ASCAP or BMI to respond. Finally a producer got back to me, and said, "Your supposed to know that because your on a College Campus, the Educational Use Exemption Applies", and you have no fear whatsoever as your not broadcasting, nor charging money. Well, how was I supposed to know? Our own campus lawyers were not even clear on the rules when asked.

    I think parts of the music industry in the US like keeping the rules obscure.

    So as long as the sales are small volume, your family has have used own original visual art material or the included system demo artwork within the rules, and your not using direct scans of cover artwork or music videos, it is far better to wait for a complaint and retract the material later, as John Yayas Suggests...

    You'll find issues arise when you put clips of the show on YouTube more then anything else. Where they automatically scan for the music clips. This means marketing videos for the artwork need to be hosted elsewhere in most cases. Usually it is safe to put up a bit of a "teaser" video for marketing purposes.

    I emailed Bill about your post/ That is why you have a very clear answer from Pangolin above. At least as clear as he can be.

    You have the option of licensing the show to a specific Pangolin user using features in Pangolin. Keep clear records and you should be fine.

    If your show uses an edit of the song, for example the dramatic opening part of one song followed by the rest of another song, we potential customers very much like it if we have music editing instructions in the classic hours:mins:seconds:frames time format, where frames are 0-29 frames per second. We can get the sound file put together from that.

    I hope we have given you a clear answer in making the end user responsible for the licensing.

    I'd echo the portion about retaining his rights to the content, by only offering an indefinite but revocable lease.

    Steve
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    Thanks so much everyone for the thorough and thoughtful responses. All the info and details you provided are really a huge help!

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    Our team composer, Ken Kozora suggested this:

    "Another alternative approach to consider would be for the producers/creators who pride themselves and market their original art in the form of laser shows to commission original music from a compatible composer they know or like. ILDA Award Winning laser artist Mike Gould has done just this for many years for many of his museum, festival and architectural installations and has found it to be well worth the time and upfront investment. Hundreds of thousands of capable and eager composers are in every city across the globe working on laptops in their bedrooms to create original music. Then the whole laser show would actually be "original art". This "original" esthetic has been becoming more popular in the last decade among the artsy urban hipsters crowd who seek out "weird and radical" original experiences and curators have responded by taking those "risks" in their programming. This might be just the type of extra experience and marketing hook that sets a laser show apart from the guy down the block who is using his $99 dollar Walmart laser and playing mp3's on his cell phone to entertain at parties (nothing wrong w/that as long as he's paying the royalties and not pointing the lasers in the wrong direction&#128541.

    Of course familiar pop songs are more easily digested at the local beer tent and fun to dance to and can have the power to transport people back in time to the glory days of their youth so there will always be an easier market for lasers w/cover bands.

    How one utilizes music and what style, original or cover, etc. all depends on personal objectives, marketing focus and where Laser show producers want to focus their time, resources and also on their interest or willingness to take chances in business and as artists."

    (Full Disclosure..I'm a composer who makes music for laser shows&#128540
    Runs with Lasers

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