Can I sell my class 4 Kvant ClubMAX 3000 FB4 in the US?

[Vectorfire]

I purchased a Kvant ClubMAX 3000 FB4 new and had it shipped to me in the US. I received my variance and now I wish to sell it to someone else in the US. Is this legal? Can I post this thing up on Ebay for example, or will it get seized by the FDA if I ship it to someone?

Just curious and don't want to risk such a big ticket item without knowing all the facts.

Thanks!

[swamidog]

Yes, but technically they also have to have a variance.

I purchased a Kvant ClubMAX 3000 FB4 new and had it shipped to me in the US. I received my variance and now I wish to sell it to someone else in the US. Is this legal? Can I post this thing up on Ebay for example, or will it get seized by the FDA if I ship it to someone?

Just curious and don't want to risk such a big ticket item without knowing all the facts.

Thanks!

[rns0504]

Just do a private sale and it should be regulated the same as a private gun sale - basically no restrictions at all.

If you list it up on eBay or similar you will draw more attention and yes, it will be best to dot your I's and cross your T's

//opinions are mine and not those of my employer

[hakzaw1]

There may be a little stimulus $$ left 'out' there--what is your price??

IMO shipping within the USA is many many times more safe than importing (crossing borders)--just get insurance and proof of delivery.

I looked up prices OUCH but 'top shelf' quality.

[lasermaster1977]

Yes, but technically they also have to have a variance.

Laser manufactures need a variance to sell products.
Laser show operators need a variance when doing shows, etc.

Has variance requirements changed? I need to know.

If he is not a manufacturer, why is a variance needed to privately sell a previously purchased laser from a manufacturer that had the variance to sell?

Thanks

[buffo]

Laser manufacturers need a variance to sell products.

Yes - they need a "laser product manufacturer's variance". To be pedantic, they also have to file a laser product report that describes the product in detail and also explains how the product was certified as being compliant with 21 CFR 1040.

Laser show operators need a variance when doing shows, etc.

Yes, they need a "laser light show variance". (It's important to note that this is not the same as the "laser product manufacturer's variance" above, even though you apply for both types using the same form.)

So far I'm sure that none of this is news to you; I'm only including it to be complete.

If he is not a manufacturer, why is a variance needed to privately sell a previously purchased laser from a manufacturer that had the variance to sell?

This is the sticky part. The CDRH draws all of it's power from the "regulation of commerce" clause. So technically, the requirement to have a laser light show variance is not triggered by the act of doing a show, but rather by engaging in commerce with the laser product. Since buying or selling a laser product consists of commerce (even in the secondary market), this falls under the CDRH's purview.

This is how they can force a seller to verify that a buyer has their laser light show variance before they sell a projector. I agree that the entire position sounds weak, and I disagree strongly with their claim on the secondary market, but this is how they've interpreted their mandate. (Caveat: I've heard rumors that the CDRH is considering softening their stance on this, but I haven't seen any official communication about it.)

Having said all that, the plain fact is that the CDRH is hopelessly understaffed for this sort of thing. It's almost unthinkable that they would ever intervene in a single private sale between two individuals and demand to see people's variances; they simply have bigger fish to fry. More directly, if you dig through past threads here on the forum you will find ample evidence of private sales like this happening without any CDRH issues, going all the way back to 2005 when the forum first started. Feel free to draw your own conclusions...

To the OP's concern about the laser being intercepted by the FDA if it sells on Ebay, I would say that's not even remotely plausible. However, it is possible that Ebay will cancel the auction and take down the listing if they think that the projector isn't certified. Ebay seems to be rather inconsistent in how they enforce the rules regarding laser projector sales, but if you mention that the projector has been certified to be US-compliant by Kvant and you also include some language about variances in your listing (something like "Buyer must have or obtain their own laser light show variance for this projector") then Ebay will probably leave you alone.

Not saying that this course of action is LEGAL; just that it's almost certainly going to fly under the radar like so many other things. (To me, this is like going 74 MPH on the Interstate when the speed limit is 70MPH.)

Adam

[rns0504]

Damn Government cares more about selling entertainment lasers than me buying and selling guns at yard sales LOL

[lasermaster1977]

Yes - they need a "laser product manufacturer's variance". To be pedantic, they also have to file a laser product report that describes the product in detail and also explains how the product was certified as being compliant with 21 CFR 1040.

This is the sticky part. The CDRH draws all of it's power from the "regulation of commerce" clause. So technically, the requirement to have a laser light show variance is not triggered by the act of doing a show, but rather by engaging in commerce with the laser product. Since buying or selling a laser product consists of commerce (even in the secondary market), this falls under the CDRH's purview.

Adam

Thanks Adam, very well stated. I haven't studied the CDRH's variance requirements in decades, probably when it was still the BRH, so much has changed. You speak with experience and authority, so my next comment is not aimed at your information, rather more towards the legal sense or interpretation.

"Commerce" is defined as buying and selling goods and/or services on a large scale. That may be why the CDRH doesn't begrudge an individual's selling a laser projector to another individual in a one-off situation. I can see that if he were a laser projector dealer (not the manufacturer), like a car dealer it would be a different matter.

[Lasertize]

Ya getting a second hand laser projector with a Mfg variance that should go with the projector but a new Variance is required by the fda from the new owner, that’s all fine and good but for the new owner to operate the second hand laser projector you need an LSO certification to turn it on, like any body dose that other than me,LOL