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Thread: Reducing Flicker in Beyond Using Settings.

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    Default Reducing Flicker (Solved)

    My new projector has a Goldenstar 5 watt fiber corrected diode RGB and pair of Scannermax 506 with Mach DSP amp.
    Any tips on Beyond (Intro) settings for minimizing image flicker on graphics ?
    I'm running in advanced color palette mode.

    I'm new to Beyond. So many settings to try, so little time.

    Vector seems to be fine. Non vector is the problem.


    Thanks,

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 11-10-2021 at 10:02.
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    it depends on the graphics you are trying to project and how they are created!

    if the graphics are made using the vector rather then point based tools then the projector settings vector tab will influence the total point count of the projected images.
    Then on top of it if you are in timeline there are blanking settings that can be set per timeline track.. While you can lower them a bit to save a bit of points the default settings on this one are usually good.

    If your frames are made point oriented (the spacing is visible in the frame file rather then just the definition of the vectors shape) then adjusting the vector settings in projector settings will not make a difference.. the frame would have to be optimized on there.

    In projector settings do you have scanrate set to 30 000 ? (30kpps)

    It may be worth asking: what is it that you are trying to project that is creating flickering for you?

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    Right now I'm binge downloading graphics shows from the cloud. About a third have objectional flicker on many objects, especially 3D Studio Max creations.

    30Kpps 10 Degrees typical.

    Steve
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    you can project 30kpps at a larger angle then that so 10 degrees is very conservative.. the ilda test pattern presents a worst case scenario on graphics.

    A lot of third party max content isn't created properly or efficiently.
    Not a lot to expect though from free content.

    A lot of russian content creation companies for instance use max to do their line animation to have more camera control.. on preview it looks great yes but the content runs very inefficiently on a laser.
    This is the issue with dump for content: no standards

    DM me with what you are looking for.. perhaps I have some stuff that could make your life a little easier.

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    Cool

    It was a vector setting in this case.

    I sat down and did some tracing, rotoscoping, and point editing . This improved things by a order of magnitude on the stills. I'm not pulling points, but removed a great deal of excess. Images optimized for poor quality scanners look like crap on Scannermax.

    In this case I'm doing a Christmas show for church. We have a few juried or professional artists in the Congregation. Once I get one of them interested, I can digitize by hand as I was taught. I'm doing the planing preview this afternoon. I'll have a better idea then.

    Part of this is a just in case scenario, if we hit Covid restrictions in December, we will work with local authorities and have "Worship in Cars" again. During Covid I found a stash of little transmitters for museum exhibits by using this one cool Ebay trick: "misspelled listings". We distributed them to various organizations and offered one to the city if they needed it. The magic for obtaining transmit range is in the antenna design, not the output stage.

    Indoors for fun, outdoors if we need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    Images optimized for poor quality scanners look like crap on Scannermax.
    Bingo.

    Even though the Compact 506 scanners are marketed as standard 30K units, they are *vastly* superior to the venerable Cambridge 6800 scanners that were the benchmark for the original 30K standard.

    You can definitely run those 506s at much wider than 10 degrees with no issues, and you can probably crank the speed up to 40K as well.

    But yeah, the whole idea of pulling points is based on the fact that the scanners can't possibly reach those positions. But if you hook up a set of very capable scanners (like the 506s), you might find that they are able to get pretty close to those pulled-points, which ruins the otherwise smooth curve effect that you'd get from lesser scanners.

    Adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    But if you hook up a set of very capable scanners (like the 506s), you might find that they are able to get pretty close to those pulled-points, which ruins the otherwise smooth curve effect that you'd get from lesser scanners.

    Adam
    Incorrect.
    This method is consistent between saturn and cheaper galvos. That means the galvo is tuned for a higher scanrate and is ran at a lower scanspeed or is not tuned correctly.

    The whole point of tuning is to match characteristics to get a predictable and dependable response.
    The difference in quality comes in at what maximum size angle that tuning stays in place.. with tuning the performance doesnt improve if you make the image smaller.. if it does improve when reducing the image size it means you have been tuning at a too large angle(which also means it's tuned incorrectly) or the graphic was made whilst the laser was overscanning with the idea that it would do that on every projector .... This is often why I suggest tuning at a bit of a smaller scan then max angle as then the amount you can size up will show you where the limit is (you will see artifacts). (this tuning consistency goes both ways for size reduction and increase, it's safer to actually tune at those smaller angles although in some situations it may be too small to the point you can't see what you are doing and the beam diameter is your obstruction).

    Where the saturn stands out for example is the tuning is kept at a very very large angle.. on top of that it barely heats up so its not going to die on you when you push it hard and for some galvos at very very far throw projections you may experience a bit of wobble or moving of the image which is not noticible at shorter throws but more present if you project far and you are next to the projected image.. this is what the saturn will not have because of it's double feedback system.


    Images for low quality scanners may look like crap in terms of performance because they were essentially overscanning at large angles and to have headroom: A content designer would have to do is add excessive spacing which in essence emulates a slower scanspeed. The images would flicker while not looking that complicated (aka crap)
    Last edited by masterpj; 11-10-2021 at 05:56.

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    I'm learning that I can open them up. I'm not seeing the classing image tearing or severe corner rounding that I would see as I change image size on an analog amp. I have 5 mm mirrors. I also took things up to 40K @ 20 and am impressed. The response changes are subtle, not drastic corner rounding like an analog amp.

    I did the classical scanner amp manufacturing test that is never disclosed to beginners / non-engineers, but works well if you have very well matched inertia mirrors and your amps are well tuned. This test is never done if the mirrors are large or if they have digital feedback sensors, are not sure about your tuning, or if you have a poor quality scanner amp, or if you see oscillation. I am very much impressed with the Mach DSP's ability to cope with this test without retuning. For all of about four seconds, as I only have one pair. Lets just say I am VERY impressed. The Grid is the Grid with no overshoot. The 30K pattern looks like a 30 K pattern with the least distortion I have ever seen in the circle during this test.

    That will be the last "skilled, brave, just lucky or stupid" thing I ever do with this pair. Too good to mess around with. But I have to know what I can do in an adverse situation in the field.

    I have not even hooked up the amplifier diagnostic and tuning software yet, nor played with my three different factory tunings. Things work amazingly well out of the box. There was one tiny picture glitch in the installation procedure in the manual, and I'll get Ryan to help correct that. Nothing that would cause any harm or loss of gear, but I found it a bit annoying. I worked through it with a carefully chosen Ohm meter. Probably has more to do with how PDF files work when scaled on different computers then anything else.

    For the record, the same visual glitch is in most of the competing products manual in one form or another.

    If I do a review, it will be a real review, not just comments in a thread.

    I'm Very Thankful that Scannermax did the group sale a while back on PL.

    Just try to order a well documented pair of scanners from overseas right now if your in the US. Lots of stuff on Ebay at 20K, but Galvos @ 30K, with well specified mirrors are difficult to find. Virtually NO US Stock, or if it is in stock in the US it is pure "Mystery Meat". If you want replacement mirrors of known thickness, you had best have friends at an optical coating lab. Some of this is the parts shortage, some of this is COVID, some of this is politics. The "Party" recently ordered that quality optics products be retained in China for sustained growth and not exported.

    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    I'm learning that I can open them up. I'm not seeing the classing image tearing or severe corner rounding that I would see as I change image size on an analog amp. I have 5 mm mirrors. I also took things up to 40K @ 20 and am impressed. The response changes are subtle, not drastic corner rounding like an analog amp.

    I did the classical scanner amp manufacturing test that is never disclosed to beginners / non-engineers, but works well if you have very well matched inertia mirrors and your amps are well tuned. This test is never done if the mirrors are large or if they have digital feedback sensors, are not sure about your tuning, or if you have a poor quality scanner amp, or if you see oscillation. I am very much impressed with the Mach DSP's ability to cope with this test without retuning. For all of about four seconds, as I only have one pair. Lets just say I am VERY impressed. The Grid is the Grid with no overshoot. The 30K pattern looks like a 30 K pattern with the least distortion I have ever seen in the circle during this test.

    That will be the last "skilled, brave, just lucky or stupid" thing I ever do with this pair. Too good to mess around with. But I have to know what I can do in an adverse situation in the field.

    I have not even hooked up the amplifier diagnostic and tuning software yet, nor played with my three different factory tunings. Things work amazingly well out of the box. There was one tiny picture glitch in the installation procedure in the manual, and I'll get Ryan to help correct that. Nothing that would cause any harm or loss of gear, but I found it a bit annoying. I worked through it with a carefully chosen Ohm meter. Probably has more to do with how PDF files work when scaled on different computers then anything else.

    For the record, the same visual glitch is in most of the competing products manual in one form or another.

    If I do a review, it will be a real review, not just comments in a thread.

    I'm Very Thankful that Scannermax did the group sale a while back on PL.

    Just try to order a well documented pair of scanners from overseas right now if your in the US. Lots of stuff on Ebay at 20K, but Galvos @ 30K, with well specified mirrors are difficult to find. Virtually NO US Stock, or if it is in stock in the US it is pure "Mystery Meat". If you want replacement mirrors of known thickness, you had best have friends at an optical coating lab. Some of this is the parts shortage, some of this is COVID, some of this is politics. The "Party" recently ordered that quality optics products be retained in China for sustained growth and not exported.

    Steve
    The scannermax amps are amazing and are very configurable. Tuning is also a lot more fun because you can just move a couple of sliders and note down your own values or save them to a profile to get perfect tuning but also have room to experiment with tunings of your own. No potentiometer drift and very advanced status report and logging.. + this amp really can do wonders in saving its galvo set by sensing its temp.

    try a few of the scanner profiles (I suggest stopping laser output as you switch tuning profiles in the machdsp software)
    Another thing is that you can also change between tunings (potentially) with a switch if you configure it to read the ttl lines for it.

    Regarding the machdsp pc interface: it's the best. It looks properly designed and has a same style interface as beyond.. it's feature packed yet not overwhelming.. with some special keys you can hold to access more "adventurous settings".
    When I got my saturns before they released I was asked to stress them hard and play with it.. and I disregarded any care in terms of experimentation.. The galvos are still alive and going very strong.

    I sadly could not say the same of the Eye magic EMS dsp interface.. it looks like something someone mocked up in visual basic with no proper description of each setting or visual representation or means to monitor anything.. on that ones performance I cannot comment however as I never got to benchmark one.
    Last edited by masterpj; 11-10-2021 at 09:50.

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    Default Problem Solved anyways, Not a Glitch.

    I like the idea of a tuning switch just under the projector lid.
    I have the Turbotracks with switchable tuning. It is great feature if used properly.
    Thanks for that tip.

    Bill B. is looking at my miniscule document issue. Again, just a little numbering scheme thing, not a problem. It is probably not Pangolin's fault, but the two different documents from the connector manufacturer are undecipherable. Pin one is marked of course, but the pin order can be indeterminate in the connector maker's documents. As Pangolin supplies a cable for the scanner input, most folks will never even notice this. I'm just the type that checks Everything, and I mean Everything.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 11-10-2021 at 14:45.
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