New Coldfire-based Networkable Embedded Laser Controller!

[JoJo]

We just need a stable and fast way to output ILDA-signal and that can be done by USB (like the FB3), by ethernet in combination with a simple processor for ethernet-communication and creating ILDA-signal.

A system like QM2000 gives other advantages, except just the processing power (which is maybe about 1/20 of the power a modern PC has).
First, it is the dongle. The software itself is worthless without the board. There is no better copy protection than running the system on a customized board (except somebody copies the whole board).
Second, it keeps lots of trouble away from the manufacturer.
Because all relevant stuff works on the card, the manufacturer has full control over it. Other software manufacturers using frame-by-frame output always have the problem, that other installed software, drivers or parts of the OS can steal processing time at the moment it is needed.
Today, such problems just happen if there is a bug or driver conflict or if there are no more PC ressources left. I tried to run a show with 2 network output cards + OpenGL preview + burning a DVD in the background + copying a file over Network. No problem at all with a cheap 1.5GHz XP-PC and 512MB RAM.

Joachim

[Pangolin]

Hi guys,

Man, that horse has been beaten so much, surely it looks like a different animal by now...

Just a few points. First, it is possible for two companies to work in parallel directions without the other company knowing about it. For example RIYA and JM discussed this scenario. But their scenario is a little different -- working with brand new parts recently introduced by a manufacturer, working with "reference designs" provided by a manufacturer, and both products coming on the market at roughly the same time. This is not the case with the QM2000. The QM2000 has been on the market now since late - 99, and both "msith", as well as Rodney have used the QM2000 for a VERY long time. Now, after years, they come out with one board that looks EXACTLY like the QM2000 (including what we would in hindsight call a "mistake" -- using an expensive and hard to get MICTOR connector for programming), and another board that looks PRETTY MUCH like the QM2000 (which also includes the same connector). The parts that we chose back in late '99 were great parts. But if we were to make a board today, we would use newer parts that are less expensive. So why does Rodney have to choose the same parts as Pangolin?

Also, parts is one thing -- layout is another. As mentioned by JM -- it doesn't take that much effort to come out with a different layout. So why did Rodney use the same exact layout as the QM2000? Take another look. All same chips, all in the same order, same quad resistor packs in the same placement, etc. There has got to be 50 ways to lay that board out. RIYA and JM *somehow* magically choose different parts and a different layout, so why can't Rodney? Why duplicate the QM2000?

Regarding "against the law", there might very well be laws against this kind of activity. I would refer people to two areas. First, the QM2000 board says "Copyright 2000, Pangolin Laser Systems" on the top, and second, take a look at the terms of our license agreement... Also, even the ILDA Code Of Ethics prevents this kind of activity, and ILDA has enforced ethics actions along these lines in the past.

Yes, the software that runs on the board might very well be different. MIGHT!! But it also might very well be a clone too! Remember what Rodney wrote about our SDK -- "Don't kid yourself". It is hard for me to interpret what he meant, but it might have meant "We will copy your SDK too if we want to".

Best regards,

William Benner

[mliptack]

I think it is a bit unfortunate this has gotten to the point that is has. It stresses me out reading the pages and pages of information (interesting information at that), let alone just thinking about how the thread has escalated since the last time I visited it... 30 minutes ago.

Either way, we are in a very small industry, as hobbyists, professionals or however everyone classifies themselves.

I have my standpoint on the issue, but it wont help to express it, I think it is clear what most people are thinking, and I just don't want to bring it into the thread yet again.

Bill, I doubt you even have to bring emails to FLEM, unless to humor the members even more

As others have said time will tell the truth here, I guess patience is what will bring that... until then we can continue to dwell upon this issue, or we can move on... I think we are spending one of our most valuable resources - time - on this thread. The reason why I am glad to be a part of PL is because so many people dedicate so much of that resource into helping others.

I would love to experience FIRST the abilities of the high end pangolin products. And second I would love to see what others are capable of too. I have yet to see any of that first hand, right now I will enjoy the capabilities that the FB3 controller has. And thats that....

Back to business law... irony?

[clandestiny]

As this has progressed , I have had many questions raised, some answered some not. I do believe though that with all the ways this board could have been laid out, even using the same components, the visual evidence indicates a near perfect clone. There is a ton of things I could elaborate on including international copyright law, what can be done, what cant be etc.
All just for discussion. Nobody wants to see that. Its just a matter of transparency and the free interchange of opinions this forum provides-

[mliptack]

Sorry if my post was all over the place, if you look at some of my timestamps... I have gotten very little sleep last night, and am wired on caffene right now.

As Clandestiny said... there have been a lot of questions answered and even more that remain. And while I would love to continue on with this thread ... i just no longer want to (although I am sure I still will, I know me too well ). I would love to see this thread again when more facts do arise and more questions do get answered, and the obvious similarites that do exist are ...proven... to be just visual similarites. heh... and the side I stand on clearly comes out - if it wasn't obvious enough in my last post.

I am in school for business, I am all for technological advances, as I think we all are, I would love to see cheaper equipment in every respect. However, I also work in the Production industry (lighting/sound/staging/backline etc.), it is a labor intensive and extremely hard to maintain the quality the company I work for represents. With that comes a higher cost. There are companys out there that can do what we do for less. But our quality is what continues to allow the company to grow and still remain in the market with HUGE players in the industry.

So my advice to smaller companies, in this case Pangolin is the Huge player in the industry, and as it has been stated, they do an incredible job helping the community. Yes it comes with a premium... we do pay more for something that is cheaper than what it is sold for - THATS BUSINESS! But we do have the added benefit of people like Bill and his coleagues(sp? on a work computer so I dont have auto spelling correction...) who know this industry like none other, and yet still extend their arms to help even the smallest of industry... the hobbyists!

Pangolin, I think this thread is an excelent example of how the PL community gives credit where it is due. We all respect the generosities that you provide to us. I am happy with the FB3 controller and I cant wait for some time when I can afford something better. Thanks guys.

In the mean time everyone else that makes controllers too, I appreciate your help in advancing the industry as well, and I hope to see good come of the ideas you generate, maybe there is something that Pangolin has not considered yet... ... time will tell

[mixedgas]

Quote:
""The only costs in doing laser graphics will be cost of scanners, optics and lasers... the controller and software is freely available on the public domain for all to contribute and improve on.
""

jeeze, you've never had to do hand created laser artwork at 15 frames per second have you? The artwork and show programming is whats bloody expensive mate, the software is cheap. When you buy a pangolin, your getting a lot of user rights to IP from artists. Those artists are NOT in the biz of starving so you can enjoy a photon fix. Get over it, the reason why Pangolin dominates the industry is the content that comes with it.

When somebody with a system that doesnt include the art trys to do a 4 minute long synchronized show, they suddenly realize that hey, thats hard work and I'm not gonna give it away. Yeah, Bill may be behind the times in terms of latest software tools etc but the amount of artwork that comes with the system, even the low end system is what makes you money when you use the system. And the system is stable, mainly cause he doesnt make rapid foolish changes. Oh and btw, the free downloadable updates are there, the cost of the disk is WHEN YOU DONT have the bandwidth to download it.

I pick up the Phone call Pango,btw they answer late in the night here, and they will fix my problems over the phone, free. Bloody Microsnot doesnt do that.

When I was a Kid I whined about the cost of DOING lasers, and oH Pango is way too expensive, my rant sounded remarkably like yours, but then when I actually did this for a living, I learned the hard way.

You sound like a communist, Free Lasers for The World!

Steve Roberts, who is signing his name, why are you NOT?

[Harvey]

Interesting discussion as to the IPR Incorporated in the laser show industry, but I wonder how many of the people who are posting are old enough to remember the Laser Media Imagen system. There are several of the bigger players in the laser industry who copied and used not just the IPR from this system but most of the graphics.

[Pangolin]

Hi Harvey,

There are several of the bigger players in the laser industry who copied and used not just the IPR from this system but most of the graphics.

Yes, Laser Media was tremendous. Not many people on this board remember the Laser Media system or their graphics or great reputation.

Anyway, I think you are talking about IP (intellectual property.) There were a few companies in the mid-west who actually replicated Laser Media systems in their entirety, including the hardware and show content (which was then on ROM). Laser Media took legal action and shut those companies down. Occasionally, the art-work itself found its way onto other computer systems, and Laser Media also took successful legal action to shut these down too. Basically Laser Media had a reputation of suing people -- AND WINNING! Which is why to this day, even though Laser Media is no longer in business, nobody will dare to touch (put into their shows, distribute, or even provide a software loading mechanism for) their art-ware.

Laser Media was a real inspiration to many people, and they won a lot of ILDA Artistic Awards during the mid-'80s and early '90s. They had a lot of great people working for them. Amazing company really. If not for what appears to be poor management, they might still be in business today...

Best regards,

William Benner

[Harvey]

Interesting that most of the current systems available adopted a similar architecture to that of the Laser Media Imagen system in the way that the processing of the graphics was taken away from the primary processor and handled by a secondary processor and read from memory, the way that the system had frame buffers implemented is no different from those that are available today. I visited a club in Germany that was displaying some of the graphics that were produced by Laser Media, the system they had installed had been supplied by a German company and was less than a year old. From my last post, IPR = Intellectual Property Rights

[Pangolin]

Interesting that most of the current systems available adopted a similar architecture to that of the Laser Media Imagen system

Harvey, let me ask you a few questions. First, how long have you been involved in the laser display business? Second, have you ever seen, or worked on a Laser Media Imagen system? And third, how is it that you know so much about the Imagen system? These aren't challenges, just questions.

Were you one of the system architects of the Laser Media Imagen system? Again, this is not a challenge, just a question. There are many smart and "big name" laser people in the world, who are just now finding their way to Photon Lexicon. So for all we know, maybe you are the mastermind behind the Laser Media Imagen... If so, it would be an honor to know!

It might also be worthwhile to to fill out the "Introduce yourself" information in this thread: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ead.php?t=3118


Best regards,

William Benner