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Thread: Now I've got something to show!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeroenVDV View Post
    Just a question as "side step".. Why is it permitted to have soundsystems on events that destroy your ears if you don't have earplugs, and are people complaining about audience scanning? Just include the "Very bright lasers on this event - own risk (sunglasses advised)"-warning below the "Very loud sound - own risk"-warning on the tickets?

    Here in the UK a law comes into force in April 2008 that does cover noise levels.
    It has been law for a while now but they gave the entertainment industry some time to comply. From April all pubs and clubs will be required to keep volumes below a certain level or provide staff with PPE to protect their hearing.

    Jim

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
    or provide staff with PPE to protect their hearing.
    Jim
    Lol.. bartenders have to have a ear plugs.?!?!..

    ust include the "Very bright lasers on this event - own risk (sunglasses advised)"-warning below the "Very loud sound - own risk"-warning on the tickets?

    Warning very bright lasers on this event - own risk (sunglasses advised)
    Warning very loud sound system - own risk (earplugs advised)
    Warning smoke machine in operation - own risk (gas masks advised)
    Warning UV radiation from light fixtures - own risk (anti-UV cream advised)
    Warning photographer on site - own risk (club nor photographer can't be responsible if your girl/boy friend sees you with someone else)

    I hired an Italian guy to do my wires. Now they look like spaghetti!

  3. #33
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    Here in the UK a law comes into force in April 2008 that does cover noise levels
    These measures could mean quite a change for anyone in the UK running a pub/club, especially where the bar is in the same area as the PA system. Noise levels in the bar area must not exceed 86dB, which is about the same as background traffic noise.(the current limit is 92dB but this isn't widely enforced). Although the option exists to offer earplugs to bar staff, this isn't going to work (unless they can lip-read!). Expect to see council officers armed with dB meters out in force next year. Sensible venue owners are partitioning bar areas off from dancefloors. The regulations also apply to DJ's, VJ's, LX Ops and any other 'staff', so expect to see a lot more isolated DJ booths being built next year.
    (it has to be said that the old noise level regs haven't been widely enforced; no idea if the new ones will be or not!)

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenalien View Post
    The regulations also apply to DJ's, VJ's, LX Ops and any other 'staff', so expect to see a lot more isolated DJ booths being built next year.
    The regs only apply to employees, so it doesn't automatically affect the DJ, however, if the DJ employs a roadie it will be the DJs resposability to protect the roadie.
    The public aren't affected by the regs though, it is presumed that they know the risk and it is up to them if they want to go in the bar.
    Think of the implications if it did cover the public, you would never see another rock concert.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenalien View Post
    (it has to be said that the old noise level regs haven't been widely enforced; no idea if the new ones will be or not!)
    I expect the councils (uk local authorities) will monitor it, it will be another source of revenue for them while they are checking for people smoking.

    Jim

  5. #35
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    I think most of pangolin lasershows, you can do an audience scanning!
    But pangilin users must read the .txt file in each showfolder to check it out.

    Pangolin FB3 QS/LivePro/SMS2Laser
    Riya MultiBus
    Pangolin LD2000 Pro

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeroenVDV View Post
    I mentioned Hugo because I've seen lots of Laser Image shows, from within the audience and from the FOH, and I know what "calculations" and safety measures are being taken.
    My problem with this is that you don't know what calculations were performed prior to you arriving at the event. It's likely that all the calculations were done in an office, in fact. For example, Bill Benner of Pangolin has managed to get a variance from the CDRH here in the US for audience scanning (so far I believe he is the first!), and all the calculations done to support that variance application were done right at the Pangolin office.

    Hugo Bunk has an excellent reputation, and I would find it very difficult to believe that he would install a projector for audience scanning use without first calculating the MPE for that projector. Just because you didn't see him with a calculator in his hand while setting up the show doesn't mean that he never calculated his MPE's.
    No, I didn't do MPE calculations. Yes, I assumed my show is safe because I've seen lots of shows with 2-10W DPSS lasers doing the same show.
    But since you didn't inspect each one of those projectors, you have no way of proving that your projector is just as safe as the one's you've seen. Not performing MPE calculations prior to doing an audience scanning show would be considered gross negligence here in the US, and would put you in a whole bunch of legal trouble. Elsewhere, it would be irresponsible at best...
    you mean an extra lens between diode and scanners?
    Or between the scanners and the output window, yes. This is one method used to increase the divergence of the beam to make it eye-safe. In fact, if you increase the size enough, the beam can be "intrisically" safe, meaning that you don't have to rely on the scanners moving the beam around to ensure safety. But it's common to increase the beam diameter a little bit; that, coupled with the scanners moving the beam around combine to minimise the MPE to your audience...
    Sorry for my "bashing" and heavy reply, I think it's because of the language-difference that I'm not able to say everything exactly the way I feel/want to say it.
    Well, we may have been a bit harsh in our questions as well. But here in the US, lasershows are *very* difficult to perform because of the strict laws. And so we are often very quick to condemn other laserists (especially professionals that should know better) when they don't follow accepted safety practices, because the risk is that if laserists don't police themselves, the government will step in and do the policing for you. And when that happens, everyone looses. (Just look at what we have to deal with here...)
    But, just because your country DOES regulate audience scanning doesn't mean it's UNsafe.
    This is true. Audience scanning *can* be done safely. (Bill Benner's variance proves it.) But there is a danger, which is why there are standards in place. (Perhaps a few too many standards here in my country, but still...) Ignoring the risk is just irresponsible.
    Very strict and specialized laws are not always a positive thing..
    I agree with this completely. Personally, I think we've gone a bit too far here in the US. But if laserists continue to ignore the safety aspect of their shows, then other countries may end up facing the same strict laws that we now have.
    Just a question as "side step".. Why is it permitted to have soundsystems on events that destroy your ears if you don't have earplugs, and are people complaining about audience scanning?
    This is a good point, and one that is not as easily answered. Part of the answer is that hearing damage takes place slowly, over many exposures, while damage to the eye is usually immediate. Also, people expect loud music, and everyone knows that if you're dumb enough to put your head next to the speaker, you will probably hurt your hearing. But they *don't* expect the light show to hurt their eyes, and in any event they can't move away from a crowd-scanning laser fast enough to prevent their exposure. Finally, damage to your eyesight is considered to be a lot more serious than a partial loss of hearing. Taken together, these several factors combine to make laser light shows appear more dangerous than loud music. But you do have a point - loud music is also a hazard.
    Just include the "Very bright lasers on this event - own risk (sunglasses advised)"-warning below the "Very loud sound - own risk"-warning on the tickets?
    The problem with that is that it takes many exposures to loud music to harm your hearing permanently. The human ear can take a lot of abuse and still recover. So 15 years after the concert, when the customer finally notices that he's lost some of his hearing, it's pretty hard for him to go back and blame the nightclub...

    No so with your eyes. If you exceed the damage threshold, you will cause immediate, permanent damage to a spot on the retina. That spot won't ever heal. True, the brain will try to map around the resulting blind spot, but it will always be there. And the customer will know it right away, making it very easy for him to blame you.

    And sunglasses won't help much. The warning on the ticket would have to say, "Warning: Extremely bright lasers in use. Permanent vision loss is possible. Enter at your own risk." Now, if you put that on your ticket, there would be a public outcry and you would be shut down.
    Do you want to be on the dance floor at a show like this?
    Of course not. But just because someone else is doing something that looks unsafe doesn't mean it's OK for you to do the same thing.

    Do the right thing... If you're going to crowd-scan, then buy a power meter and test your projector's output. Download the form that explains how to calculate your MPE's. See how close to the limit your show really is. And if it's too hot, consider adding a small lens to expand the beam a bit. Then re-run the calculations and see where you are...

    Your show will still be just as impressive to the crowd, but you'll be safe. And you can use that as a selling point. Explain that you've done the calculations to prove that your show is safe. Besides, watching a lasershow that isn't safe actually HURTS. (After-images and flash-blindness are *not* enjoyable...)

    Adam

  7. #37
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    A while back I mentioned the Roger Waters tour that was going on this summer. While being an incredible show I was VERY surprised to see audience scanning in the US!

    I was even more surprised to later find out that the laser used is a 100w custom made Arctos unit! Someone made some calculations somewhere!!! And I blinked every time it came around... not because I thought it was unsafe, but because I know I value my eyes... And for the record I was wearing earplugs too!

    Same goes for the Tool concert I saw this summer. That was one incredible laser show! There were 5 projectors total, if my memory serves me correctly. However for that show there was no audience scanning. But I'm glad I had earplugs. I saw a dB meter at FOH... it was around 130!!!!!!!!

  8. #38
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    MTV awards did it with Muse. Noone said a word when someone posted it here. ILDA didn't say a word. And suddenly when new member does it. Everybody waves their arms around. They had 6-8 3W green heads scanning the crowd. It looks very dangerous on video!
    I hired an Italian guy to do my wires. Now they look like spaghetti!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffo View Post
    Hugo Bunk has an excellent reputation, and I would find it very difficult to believe that he would install a projector for audience scanning use without first calculating the MPE for that projector. Just because you didn't see him with a calculator in his hand while setting up the show doesn't mean that he never calculated his MPE's.
    I've started reading documents about MPE's, audience scanning, etc. As far as I know now, MPE's are not calculated for projectors themselves, but for projectors in combination with the show they'll be running.
    How would you calculate MPE's for a show done with LivePro? With all possible effects, live scanrate-settings, manual speed/rotation settings, position settings, scale settings? I don't think that's possible..
    The only thing you can do is be very careful with audience scanning, don't use patterns with only a few beams, don't lower the scanrate too much, don't zoom to the minimal size when positioned in the crowd, don't stop your beams for a (too long) time. Etc. And THIS is ( - if I understood everything correctly - ) what Hugo and his people do, when operating a live-show. They don't calculate MPE's every second, they are just being careful and don't do audience scanning every second.

    But since you didn't inspect each one of those projectors, you have no way of proving that your projector is just as safe as the one's you've seen.
    I've seen and used some of those projectors. Oh, and the new 10W DPSS greens he's working on have a lower divergence and beam diameter than you've ever seen before.

    Or between the scanners and the output window, yes. This is one method used to increase the divergence of the beam to make it eye-safe. In fact, if you increase the size enough, the beam can be "intrisically" safe, meaning that you don't have to rely on the scanners moving the beam around to ensure safety. But it's common to increase the beam diameter a little bit; that, coupled with the scanners moving the beam around combine to minimise the MPE to your audience...
    I'll do some research after this, can you maybe help me with a link to dealers selling those kind of lenses?

    The problem with that is that it takes many exposures to loud music to harm your hearing permanently. The human ear can take a lot of abuse and still recover. So 15 years after the concert, when the customer finally notices that he's lost some of his hearing, it's pretty hard for him to go back and blame the nightclub...
    Well, you're not right here.. Being in a concert-hall with 101dB of music (yes, that's quite common.. more and more dance events have more than 115dB..) for more than 4 minutes will harm your hearing permanantly..

    No so with your eyes. If you exceed the damage threshold, you will cause immediate, permanent damage to a spot on the retina. That spot won't ever heal. True, the brain will try to map around the resulting blind spot, but it will always be there.
    Same for your hearing.



    Do the right thing... If you're going to crowd-scan, then buy a power meter and test your projector's output. Download the form that explains how to calculate your MPE's. See how close to the limit your show really is. And if it's too hot, consider adding a small lens to expand the beam a bit. Then re-run the calculations and see where you are...
    I'll try to have a conversation with Hugo about all this, and find out how things are done safe here.

  10. #40
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    Absolutely nice job! I cannot believe made at home. You are well up in electronics. From the outside enclosure, it looks tight and firm. Especially add the function of Interlock and LED detector. It is trully professioanl integrated projector.

    It is so excited to see our laser be turned into such a good projector. Really nice pictures! I think you are also a good camerist.

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