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Thread: Audience Scanning??

  1. #31
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    Who has a 1mW laser with a 20mm beam?
    Audience scanning is a very slippery slope.
    Hardly anyone will be using 5mw lasers.
    I have seen way to many guys doing audience scanning here in the US. They usually use melles griot 2 and 3 watt lasers.
    Bad Bad laser monkey.

    It is way easier to do a safe show with high power than it is to do audience scanning using any sized laser.
    Skipp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC01477(2).jpg  

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  2. #32
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by UV99LASER View Post
    Hello all I am Skipp with UV99 Lasers.
    ...He clinically concluded that any laser light entering the eye does SOME permanent damage no matter what. Laser eye damage is also cumulative. You will probably not even notice your permanent eye damage as you have millions of little cone and rods to destroy. Repeated exposure over time will cause a "greying" or dimming of the vision.

    The reality is that if you(the average audience member) sees only one or two audience scanning shows in your life you will never notice your injuries.

    However if you are a disco-biscuit munching up all night every weekend clubber... you might be in for a world of hurt.
    Hey Skipp -

    Welcome to PL I think I know you thru Brian B @ Camb (we can chat later...) And RE: "I have been doing lasers since 92 or 3. I come from the water cooled era." Yeah, me too - grew up in the 'old skool'...Lots of amazing 'laser-vets' here... Good to see ya here...

    I have to say, I agree nearly 100% with everything you've said - I heartily agree with "The only good laser in the eye is no laser in the eye.",(except controlled, on-purpose, ie LASIK) and I left up top what I feel are your most relevant and true points (I am merely reflecting what you are saying to the others, here...)

    And I also have to second "You Guys who have scanned yourself with your 2 watt lasers should have your retinas photographed. You would be shocked to see all of the holes in them" - It is NOT all that expensive - a decent eye clinic will charge you about $75-150. tops for a FULL exam and scoping - pics maybe more, but at least an exam and report...

    It is serious food for thought, because while I personally feel that a BIT of 'tastefully placed' LOW-power scanning (250mW or LESS) CAN be attractive - what we far more commonly see - even at times posted by respected members of this forum - is just plain whacked, and for me personally, ANNOYING. I don't LIKE having to constantly 'wince' so I don't end up getting 'flashed' - the afterimages make it harder to SEE the rich colors!!!

    I, personally, enjoy a laser show more where I am 'teased' - fluid sines / fans that feel-like they are JUST out of reach (~10' up!) and ESPECIALLY if you are kicking 40W out - that stuff should be WELL away from people!!! What did most 'Lasercopes' DO before they got converted into light show systems? Umm, SURGERY, helloooo!!

    (Marcus, I am sorry to hear of your accident - I sincerely hope that in time, you may recover some, if not all of your precious sight - unless it was a direct hit to your fovea, you might just have a bad burn/scab for now - perhaps in time, it may subside somewhat...)

    But, really, I just think it is not taken seriously enough by WAY too many 'laserists' - and just cause a guy has the bux to buy a 3W MG and a QM2K does NOT make him a 'laserist' - I think every SALE of a laser system, SHOULD be regulated to include PROOF that the buyer has, at a minimum, completed a laser safety training class (in depth), and understands the power of the 'gun' he/she is buying - we have to get a license to drive a car (and yes, I know, cars take lives, lasers usually do NOT), but it is more an issue of encouraging self-regulation thru accountability - if you KNEW you could get your precious, money-earning laser-license - and maybe your LASER - yanked for not operating safely, would that NOT encourage better responsability?

    OK, so the 'controversy' then becomes - what truly DEFINES "Safe" - well, based on everything I've ever read (except from those selling something) I'd have to agree with Skipp in that "Safe Audience Scanning" is really a misnomer - it would be better, and I think, ultimately more accurate, to say "SafER Audience Scanning" is now possible...

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
    ...but, a 1mW beam 500 metres away with a diameter of 20mm will do no damage.
    All due repect, Jim, this is an almost irrelevant example, and I don't think was Skipps' point - you're probably right, BUT even so, we often forget how our LENS figures into the equation - What would be the energy density of the FOCUSED SPOT on a person's 0.2mm fovea, in this example? Yeah, probably NOT damaging, your point is made (though it might be MORE accurate to say "will do no NOTICABLE damage") But Skipps 'rant' example, is what is FAR more likely to happen - 2-3W MGs - ESPECIALLY @ 532nm: great at burning tissue - HAS probably given a few foveas a few 'freckles' - and the issue is, no one reports it, cause very few immediately KNOW - UNTIL, something like what happened to Marcus, there - happens to someone in PUBLIC. Then we're ALL screwed. No more lasers available to anyone less than a PhD at a University - like dynamite, post 9/11 - and there goes the laser show industry (again!) And hobbyists? Hmmm. I think we'd all be forced back to RC models.

    Ok, I'm gonna shut up, now, but I just submit the evidence shows it would do EVERYONE good to have a much more SERIOUS vs a more CAVALIER attitude towards the subject / practices - when I hear of people using themSELVES as 'MPE meters' ("for every show we set up, we "sample" the show from all points of audience access. If its uncomfortably bright at the closest points, we take measures to correct the issue.") NOT a criticism, but EEK! How long are you gonna be able to do this before you can't see too well anymore, dude?! And isn't the 'judgement' of what is 'safe' for others, really being reduced in 'accuracy' by every 'sample' likely damaging the very 'meter' (eyes) you use to judge by? Again, no crits, here, just food for thought.

    I DID say I was gonna shut up, right? Sorry... peace..

    - J
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 12-21-2007 at 23:20.
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  3. #33
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    I know a notorious laser guy in San Francisco who got sued for blasting a guy in the eye.
    The guy had the real deal a nice little hole smoked straight through the center of his retina. He had the photographic(from the opthamologist) evidence to prove his permanent non reversible eyesight loss case.

    They settled out of court for $750,000.00. Say that again seven hundred and fifty thousand hard earned scrondigulars and one eyeball gone for life.

    I guess it comes down to morality.
    Do you feel confident in risking the possibility of causing permanent injury to someone(who you probably do not know) just to make a buck?

    I always err on the side of caution when it comes to lasers.
    It is nice to be safe to see another day.

    Be safe.
    Skipp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails nullDSC00144.JPG  


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by UV99LASER View Post
    I know a notorious laser guy in San Francisco who got sued for blasting a guy in the eye.
    Hey Skipp - Any chance this 'notorious guy's initials are P.R.??

    - J
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  5. #35
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    Post These are our exact thoughts as well

    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Hey Skipp -

    Welcome to PL I think I know you thru Brian B @ Camb (we can chat later...) And RE: "I have been doing lasers since 92 or 3. I come from the water cooled era." Yeah, me too - grew up in the 'old skool'...Lots of amazing 'laser-vets' here... Good to see ya here...

    I have to say, I agree nearly 100% with everything you've said - I heartily agree with "The only good laser in the eye is no laser in the eye.",(except controlled, on-purpose, ie LASIK) and I left up top what I feel are your most relevant and true points (I am merely reflecting what you are saying to the others, here...)

    And I also have to second "You Guys who have scanned yourself with your 2 watt lasers should have your retinas photographed. You would be shocked to see all of the holes in them" - It is NOT all that expensive - a decent eye clinic will charge you about $75-150. tops for a FULL exam and scoping - pics maybe more, but at least an exam and report...

    It is serious food for thought, because while I personally feel that a BIT of 'tastefully placed' LOW-power scanning (250mW or LESS) CAN be attractive - what we far more commonly see - even at times posted by respected members of this forum - is just plain whacked, and for me personally, ANNOYING. I don't LIKE having to constantly 'wince' so I don't end up getting 'flashed' - the afterimages make it harder to SEE the rich colors!!!

    I, personally, enjoy a laser show more where I am 'teased' - fluid sines / fans that feel-like they are JUST out of reach (~10' up!) and ESPECIALLY if you are kicking 40W out - that stuff should be WELL away from people!!! What did most 'Lasercopes' DO before they got converted into light show systems? Umm, SURGERY, helloooo!!

    (Marcus, I am sorry to hear of your accident - I sincerely hope that in time, you may recover some, if not all of your precious sight - unless it was a direct hit to your fovea, you might just have a bad burn/scab for now - perhaps in time, it may subside somewhat...)

    But, really, I just think it is not taken seriously enough by WAY too many 'laserists' - and just cause a guy has the bux to buy a 3W MG and a QM2K does NOT make him a 'laserist' - I think every SALE of a laser system, SHOULD be regulated to include PROOF that the buyer has, at a minimum, completed a laser safety training class (in depth), and understands the power of the 'gun' he/she is buying - we have to get a license to drive a car (and yes, I know, cars take lives, lasers usually do NOT), but it is more an issue of encouraging self-regulation thru accountability - if you KNEW you could get your precious, money-earning laser-license - and maybe your LASER - yanked for not operating safely, would that NOT encourage better responsability?

    OK, so the 'controversy' then becomes - what truly DEFINES "Safe" - well, based on everything I've ever read (except from those selling something) I'd have to agree with Skipp in that "Safe Audience Scanning" is really a misnomer - it would be better, and I think, ultimately more accurate, to say "SafER Audience Scanning" is now possible...



    All due repect, Jim - can you PROVE that, mathematically? What would be the energy density of the FOCUSED SPOT on a person's fovea in this example? We often forget how our LENS figures into the equation - though, this is an extreme example - you're probably right (though it would be probably MORE accurate to say "will do no NOTICABLE damage") - but in Skipps 'rant' example - FAR more likely to happen - yeah, 2-3W MGs - ESPECIALLY @ 532nm: great at burning tissue - HAS probably given a few foveas a few 'freckles' - and the issue is, no one makes a big deal out of it / no ones knows, UNTIL, something like what happened to Marcus, there - happens to someone in PUBLIC. Then we're ALL screwed. No more lasers available to anyone less than a PhD at a University - like dynamite, post 9/11 - and there goes the laser show industry (again!) And hobbiests? Hmmm. I think we'd all be forced back to RC planes/trains/automobiles..

    Ok, I'm gonna shut up, now, but I just submit the evidence shows it would do EVERYONE good to have a much more SERIOUS vs a more CAVALIER attitude towards the subject / practices - when I hear of people using themSELVES as 'MPE meters' ("for every show we set up, we "sample" the show from all points of audience access. If its uncomfortably bright at the closest points, we take measures to correct the issue.") NOT a criticism, but EEK! How long are you gonna be able to do this before you can't see too well anymore, dude?! And isn't the 'judgement' of what is 'safe' for others, really being reduced in 'accuracy' by every 'sample' likely damaging the very 'meter' (eyes) you use to judge by? Again, no crits, here, just food for thought.

    I DID say I was gonna shut up, right? Sorry... peace..

    - J

    This is exactly how I conduct business in the manner of safe and legal events, don't get me wrong about the situation that caused my eye damage is not cause by the way we present our laser projections. That case was a one time accident caused from an aerial laser projection and having myself on a hydrolic lift 150ft away adjusting another laser system that was ground based with the 40 watt that was projecting so it was my fault from being up in the air in the scanning zones not on the ground with any people or persons. I myself and all of my company employee's have never in many years of events throughout many far away lands have never used our systems to scan low to hit ANY PERSONS only myself and I've paid the price for my mistake with my own eye. I have one left and I hope no one ever scans me with their system. Skipp is very correct with everything he has said, I have learned alot from him on safe standards for many types of custom situations in our laser shows on all safe aspects of our high power laser operations in relation to scanning. I value both of your comments, as the laser industry will last the long term if everyone is careful with everything they do in public.
    I did say in past conversation that the F.A.A. and the C.D.R.H. both have exceptions to some regulations. The "laser crowd scan" or special scans can be arranged but the part I left out was that agreements with all parties involved in the laser show are in full communication the the government and can prove the exact safe measures that can be in place to allow an extended one day variance amendment. I would always have extra employee's on site and even have the client go the extra mile to keep the entire booking safe for everyone. I say this because as you all may already know that some high profile clients from time to time ask laser companies to perform shows that can be dangerous. I'm insured so I'm always very careful and I never want any damage to any of the laser industry for future business or cause my rates to go through the roof.

    I should shut up now,

    blah blah
    I sorry for going on so long,
    Take care all
    Marcus
    Last edited by Tribal Existance Prod.; 12-21-2007 at 23:58. Reason: spelling

  6. #36
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    P f**king R

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by UV99LASER View Post
    HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa HaHa
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    P f**king R

    I know punish me later skipp.

    go right on ahead laugh it up

    lol
    I just blah way to much..
    i am funny
    Last edited by Tribal Existance Prod.; 12-21-2007 at 23:59. Reason: spelling

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by UV99LASER View Post
    P f**king R
    LOL...Yeah, I think that guy has single-handedly done more damage to the laser-show industry than all other 'hacks / throat-cutters' combined... did that injury incident happen during one of his famous '40W laserscope shows, epoxied to a 2x4 on top of several milk-crates with duct-tape and a cereal bowl'?

    - J
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    LOL...Yeah, I think that guy has single-handedly done more damage to the laser-show industry than all other 'hacks / throat-cutters' combined... did that injury incident happen during one of his famous '40W laserscope shows, epoxied to a 2x4 on top of several milk-crates with duct-tape and a cereal bowl'?

    - J
    my equipment is very nice and I do have money so I keep everything ship shape. custom built not some hack job

  10. #40
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    milk crates, very funny. I have never damaged anything or anyone Im sure you have youself though. You dont know me, I'm not just a laser company so I don't carry myself in some low class manner with trash.
    Last edited by Tribal Existance Prod.; 12-22-2007 at 00:07. Reason: spell

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