Wide Scan Angle lens

[Laserman532]

Good to see you are all cool. Thought for a moment you would explode if I tempted you!

Thanks for the info

Naah, me explode? no way, too messy. Im all cool. I guess my point was that some people need to respect the talents of others toil and your apparent disrespect for others inventions (and potential invasion thereof) needed to be called out. You asked for patents "for your review" the numbers and cases were supplied to you..."you poopooed the information" (i implied you wouldn't even understand them, yet alone be able to replicate them) and also enlightened you on what a fresnel lens was within 3 minutes of you stating that it is something you would wish to learn "some day" Yip its a good day...

[Dr Laser]

If you made a device similar to one already patented you CAN use it for your own use. You CAN'T sell it or manufacture it for mass production. Using your own build device for commercial purposes?!?. Hmmm this is a very slippery slope. But usually nobody cares that much.

[buffo]

William Benner, so lets say that patent holds. Do you think anyone will be following me around to check that I do not implement a simular concept in any of my small time shows?

Dude...

Don't you think it's just a bit crass to ask Bill if it's OK to infringe on a patent, when one of the patent's you're talking about BELONGS TO PANGOLIN? Re-read Bill's post. AVI has one set of patents, Pangolin has another set that builds upon AVI's technology. Bill paid the license fee, which is why his lens is expensive. He needs to recoup the license fee that he pays to AVI. (Well, that, plus the fact that the lens is big, heavy, and machined to tight specs to begin with, which makes it expensive by it's very nature.)

Why don't you rather change your point of attack and sell the stuff at affordable prices.

Bill explained why the lenses are expensive in his post. I've actually held one of these lenses in my hand, and believe me when I say that they are both incredibly well made and *very* heavy. It's not some cheap lens you'll find on e-bay.

Yeah, yeah cost this and cost that, I do not think I have to give you a lesson in bussiness/ cost vs quantity, I am sure you and some other companies can make these allot cheaper than your current Inflated price!

Wait... You admit to knowing very little about lenses or the patent system, yet you're qualified to offer advice on cost vs quantity for a product that you know nothing about? That rings a little hollow there, Werner.

Bill isn't out to screw people. He charges what he charges because he has to. "Cost this and cost that" is what business is *ALL* about. The lens is expensive because of these costs. For that matter, the Pangolin QM-2000 board is expensive because of other costs.

You want to go cheap? OK - buy an alphalite like I did when I got started. But be prepared to deal with the shortcomings. (Which are legendary)

Likewise, you want a cheap lens solution for your projector? Play around with a dozen different lenses that you can buy from Edmund Optics. And when none of them work, and you've wasted $500 on lenses, and perhaps killed your red diode from back-reflection from the lenses you've been playing with, maybe you'll understand why AVI's patent is still in force.

*THEN* you can call Pangolin and order the lens that was designed from the start to do exactly what you want. But it's going to be expensive, because Pangolin is paying to license the technology from AVI, and because the lens is *massive*.

Anyone been doing anything New and Interesting? ( hope you were not breaking some patent law...)

It's one thing when a hobbyist does something new and interesting, only to discover later on that there is a patent covering the process. But what I do in my own home for my own pleasure is my business. *YOU*, on the other hand, are performing commercial shows for profit. And in that case, if you're going to use a patented process to enhance the quality of your show, you really should pay the license fee.

You can't have it both ways... You can't argue for the poor hobbyist on a budget and then turn around and say that it's OK to violate patents in a commercial endevor. (And besides, Bill has already shown his willingness to reach out to the hobbyist community - in many ways.)

Adam

[Laserman532]

Hey adam, Here is a picture of me falling out of my chair absolutely laughing my head off when he said... (lol'ing or what ever you kids say)

Yeah, yeah cost this and cost that, I do not think I have to give you a lesson in bussiness/ cost vs quantity,

I am the last person in the world to protect Bill Benners integrity, but really I was laughing so hard when I read this...sorry werner...but you be in the wrong business!

[Laserman532]

Hey adam, Here is a picture of me falling out of my chair absolutely laughing my head off when he said... (lol'ing or what ever you kids say)

Yeah, yeah cost this and cost that, I do not think I have to give you a lesson in bussiness/ cost vs quantity,

I am the last person in the world to protect Bill Benners integrity, but really I was laughing so hard when I read this...sorry werner...but you be in the wrong business!

That didnt come out right...Im the last person in the world "QUALIFIED" to protect Bill Benners Integrity, is what i meant to say. (i think???) Bill, Patrick & aaron are "GURUS" and should be held in the highest of regard.

[gottaluvlasers]

werner-

while i understand what youre attempting to say about "pangolins over priced this and that..." you need to look through this forum and see the MANY MANY discussions regarding software and pricing. and WHY they charge what they charge.

at first i couldnt understand why pangolin just didnt lower their prices and let more people buy their product. then i realized....DUH...why in the hell should they??

pangolin is NOT designed nor attempting to be an "entry level" or hobbyist level software package. they are a full fledged professional laser software manufacturer. their new FB3 system is WELL ABOVE the entry level and hobbyist level control needs and it is priced accordingly. (approx $500 USD).

people are getting frustrated at pangolin for selling a superior software. and not lowering their prices. WHY??? if you go and want to buy a lexus....do you get pissed at the sales person when they tell you the car is $60,000?? do you tell the lexus dealership, "Hey...i just want to drive the car on wednesdays, thursdays and saturdays. im NOT a professional driver, can you sell me a lexus for $25,000..." NO. of course you dont. if you want to buy a lexus....you're going to pay a lexus price. if you want to buy a ford focus, expect to pay a ford focus price.

if you cant afford a lexus. DONT BUY ONE!! or dont complain that a lexus has too many bells and whistles you will never need or use. (i.e.- Pangolin). if you dont need it, or dont want it. buy something else. if you cant afford it, buy a more affordable car. same with the laser software...

if you cant afford pangolin or think pangolin has WAY too much for you to use as a hobbyist....THEN DONT BUY IT!!! very, very simple!!! dont get pissed and annoyed at a manufacturer who makes a far superior product and then get anoyed at that manufacturer for not lowering their prices to accomodate your lower budget.

i hope this doesnt come off as "flaming" or anything. im obviously in no way putting you or anyone else down. i just dont understand how people are getting upset at pangolin (or any similar situation...) for selling a superior product, and not adjusting their prices down to what an inferior product should sell for...???

if you want a lexus...buy a lexus!! if you cant afford a lexus...dont shop for one and then get annoyed when the price is given to you.

seems pretty simple to me...

-Marc

[Dr Laser]

I don't think Pang's prices are high. I think Utopia 3D is overpriced. I can get 3DS Max and Max convert for much less! If they lower their price to around 800-1000. I would buy it.

[godfrey]

There was a time when I thought Pangolin's products were expensive - then I shopped around and found that most systems that offered anything close to what Pangolin offered it seemed more in line.

Everyone at Pangolin, including Bill works hard to deliver a product that is second to none. I'm sure the prices of their products would drop if everyone in the world started buying them - but since millions are not, the cost has to remain high to recover the cost of development.


If I prototype something and manufacture a few of them the cost is going to remain much more than if I mass produced it.


Granted, the Pangolin Pro package is far out of reach for me at this time - but if I ever start doing shows on a grand level then I'd easily be able to purchase it and recover my investment.



Phil


p.s. Bill, do you ever sleep? You're either answering e-mail, on the forums or developing a new product.

[Pangolin]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the comments and kudos.

I do sleep, but normally when other people are awake. Also, we always have people at Pangolin who are awake at some time of the day, so basically there is always *somebody* to help.

Second, regarding our prices on the lenses, the lenses are probably the least profitable part of our business. Adam is correct in that we pay a licensing fee to AVI to distribute the Discoscan lens. We only make a few hundred dollars on this $1500 to $1700 product. That's not much profit to run an international company. And if you don't want to deal with an international company, then you can't access this technology. Sorry, that's just the way it is...

A lot of what we do requires an immense amount of R&D before it reaches any consumer. And often times, this R&D is done at the hands of what is literally the worlds' experts. For example, we had James Carter do the lens prescription of our Dazzler lens, and he also worked on the two variants of the Omniscan wide-angle lenses from AVI and LFI (LFI is under the license of AVI as well). James Carter is a world renowned lens designer who only worked on our projects for extra income. During his day job (at a military contractor), James works on Spy Satellite lenses that read license plates from space (no kidding). I will also point out that the core rendering technology of our LC-MAX product is from David Gould -- another world renowned producer of rendering software. David worked at Disney, Pixar and Ex-Luna and on such film projects as The Lord Of The Rings and King Kong. So basically when you buy Pangolin products, you have access to technology that was created by literally the worlds' brightest minds. We don't mess around with stuff created in a basement, at bargain-basement prices. We go to the smartest people in the world, and make deals with them to distribute their technology (in those cases when we cant figure it out for ourselves).

Trust me, we charge the lowest amount of money that we possibly can, while delivering the highest quality. And we never charge for software updates. Can you tell me a single other *commercial* software company in the world that does what we do? When's the last time you got a free update from Microsoft, or Autodesk, or Intuit? (and not just bug fixes, but a real update with new features and new content.)

Best regards,

William Benner

[carmangary]

MS has free IE updates.