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Thread: VIDEO Comments

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Connecticut, USA

    Default VIDEO Comments

    like i said in the end of the other thread-
    i apologize for hijacking the original intent of the "Wide angle scan lens" thread. i wanted to respond to a few comments though...

    1- ANDYF-

    "Ok so, you say we are not professional with your 2 ... years experince. I have 15+ years experience, over 20 events per month excluding busy periods of the year and no accidents. I think that kind of endorces that we are working in a professional mannor isnt it?"

    -YES!! thats my EXACT point!!! you ARE a seriously professional laser company. you have multiple high powered beautiful lasers. i saw other videos of yours that were beyond amazing. my complaint was with the video at hand. the video that i saw and the video i posted a link to! i didnt say, your company isnt professional. i didnt say all of your shows were unsafe. i didnt say you you werent a great laser company! in fact i said the opposite quite a few times. my complaint was with the VIDEO AT HAND. the video you ASKED me to refer you to to see what i was talking about. THAT was and is my gripe!! i even specifically said that a professional company like yours with the high tech lasers and artistry you obviously posess shouldnt have to resort to unsafe shows to make a show memorable. i said you should let your lasers, technology, artistry and technology speak for itself.

    i didnt "slander" you. i didnt provide any false statement or accusation. i never once said, those ARE (meaning as factual...) 10W lasers. i simply said they are HIGH POWERED and "LOOKED LIKE" at least 5-8 watt or more laser systems! i said that your explanation of the lens system you explained didnt remotely come close to providing justification for the amount of lasers and distances and powers that the crowd was exposed to. for arguments sake...what WERE the powers???

    ill give you the benefit of the doubt...lets just say the highest power there was "ONLY" 500mW (which i honestly dont believe for a second) are you saying in all of your 15 years of professionalism and 20 events per month and and vast knowledge of lasers and theories and laser systems....that taking 300mW-500mW....crap, even 50mW lasers and AIMING THEM DOWN INTO A CROWD at distances of only aprox 15-20 feet is safe? If you can HONESTLY tell me that you dont see anything wrong with that...that you see NO HARM in putting an audience of YOURS in front of that much radiation, if you can tell me that there is no danger or safety issues involved then i will sincerely apologize to YOU and EVERYONE else here for wasting everyones time reading my overly protective and safety conscious ridiculous posts...

    andy, i said it before, ill say it again...i am QUITE sure your company is amazing. you have amazing shows, great clients, great lasers, amazing choreography, been in business a long time...i never once doubted any of that. nor did i accuse you or your company otherwise. i simply saw what may have been an early show, a private show for friends, maybe even a farme dout show, who knows?? an OBVIOUSLY unsafe show and i commented on it. whether those lasers were 20mW, 200mW, 500mW or 50 was unsafe! and i said you of ALL PEOPLE...being a professional for over 15 years...should have known better!!! unless lasers and light work differently in romania than do over here, i belive...and i may be wrong...but i DO bleieve a 20mW or 50mW or 500mW or 300mW or 50 WATT laser CAN cause damage to ones sight!?!?!?!?


    "Ever checked out this video: Here he does a full color show in broad daylight....ever tried that ? It's a heck of a job, still the beams fly OVER the people, not INTO them"

    YES!! again, thats my point EXACTLY!!!!! andy has the lasers and talent and and show expertise to perform awe inspiring shows WITHOUT putting his audience in harms way!!! most of the other videos i saw almost knocked me out of my chair because of the quality of his showmanship. somebody with that type of equipment and that type of talent shouldnt have to resort to dangerous and unprofessional show ethics to "wow" a crowd!!

    "the fact that in the US you cannot do European-Type shows is a thing that I feel frustrates you and you take this out on European companies that do these shows. Just to feel good about yourself you tell them they should not do the show this way"

    with all do respect peter- that was a pretty absurd statement. thats the "You hate me cuz you aint me" mentality that just detracts from the problem at hand.

    if the usa said tomorow....screw the laws, crowd scan all you want...i can tell you RIGHT NOW on the soul of my family that i would NEVER do such a thing! about a year ago, i would have said, HELLL YEAHH!!!! what has changed??? EDUCATION and PROFESSIONALISM!!! laser light isnt different in the UK than it is in the USA. Laser light is JUST AS DANGEROUS in the UK or romania or Guam or Italy or it is here in the USA. do the laws of physics not apply over there?? if so, i would LOVE to know!!

    "What experience do you bring in that area ? have you ever done a show in Europe ?"

    NO...i have never done a show in europe. what has that got to do with the issue at hand?? like i said from the begining...i dont claim to be a superstar laser company. in fact i have said a million times that i have a TON to learn! i get by with what i have (my yag) and i have a great reputation in my field...and i have NEVER crowd scanned or done a show in europe. is that a pre-requisite to become a superior laser company?? i must crowd scan and do a show in europe?

    peter and andyf and a few others who commented...

    i am NOT personally attacking you or anyone. if you felt that way or feel that way than i sincerely apologize. i AM however firming my point and concern that the video at hand was and is a blatant safety risk.

    oh- the laser pointer comment- yeah, dont get me started on that! those dingbats selling those things to a bunch of high school kids....well, thats fior another thread....


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Central Florida


    Hmmm, guess I need to actually look at the wide angle thread... That was an interesting vid, but too much green.

    Hmmm, times 2... I just watched the video in "?" fromthe wide angle thread. Definatly goes into my top 3 most dangerous shows. I threw up my hands just watching from my laptop. But, hey, I AM a n00b, so I cannot make judgements. It is my observation that those lasers seem a bit powerful to scan an audience. And those static beams in the audience...
    Last edited by allthatwhichis; 02-27-2008 at 18:13.
    Love, peace, and grease,

    allthat... aka: aaron@pangolin

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Melbourne, Australia


    what static beams in the audience ? static beam = raw unscanned beam. I didn't see any...
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Central Florida

    Thumbs up

    Thanks aijii. That is my n00bness showing through. I thought static beam meant any beam that was stopped for any amount of time, be it scanned or not. I was referring to the "fan" of beams that stayed stationary in the audience for at least one full second if not several. I would figure that was unsafe. I wouldn't want that effect bouncing off my forehead, even from my meesly projector.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007


    Looking at the video I can see where the comment about static beams comes from. I only watched the first 30 seconds or so, but there are effects that park themselves in the audience area for several seconds or more at a time.

    I quite often come across this scenario when assessing shows, with the designers or operators thinking as long as the beam is not a stationary single static beam then it is safe. But parking or pausing a scanned effect into the audience is really not good either, and a sure fire way to exceed the MPE very quickly. In fact poking finger beams into the audience makes things even worse than putting a static fan or tunnel into the audience, because the fingers are created by deliberately slowing the galvos down for short periods of time to make them appear accentuated.

    This makes the exposure duration from a finger beam type effect significantly longer than that from a more fluid effect, such as a fan. So even with a single pulse from one of the “fingers” hitting the eye, the total dosage is certainly likely to be much higher than for a scanned effect that is generated by a constant fast velocity (e.g. a fan or tunnel).

    For laser effects that are parked on the same place in the audience scanning area, a “multiple pulse” correction factor is added to the MPE for the single pulse. The more hits in that same area, the greater correction factor reduces the applicable MPE.

    So really, if you are wanting to make your audience scanning safer, start by avoiding putting finger beams and other effects that rely slowing or stopping the galvos momentarily, and if you do use type of effect, keep the whole effect moving the audience and avoid parking the laser effects.

    Another common mistake when using finger beams is to think that if a 1W laser (for example) is producing an effect with 10 fingers, that each of the fingers has a peak power of only 100mW (i.e it has been split or divided by 10). – The peak power remains the same however, which is the full 1W, so you are not splitting the power.

    Considering a 100mW laser producing a finger beam effect; At a distance of 10 meters, a short pulse of half a millisecond is enough to exceed the MPE by 7 times. Have that same effect parked for 0.25 of a second and it’s possible to exceed the MPE by over 16 times.

    Even with a fairly modest size laser it’s quite easy to exceed the MPE.

    Try doing the same thing with a 1W laser, and the single pulse MPE is exceed by 70 times, with the multiple pulse MPE being in excess of 160 times the MPE.

    Now if anyone wants to do this with a 5W laser… the single pulse exposure would be about 370 times the MPE, and the multiple pulse MPE, from keeping the effect parked, comes in a whopping 800+ times the MPE.

    Of course, these figures relate to only one method of creating the finger beams, but shorter durations generally mean that more hits on the finger spots are required to achieve the same effect, so you can end up in the same ballpark.


    James Stewart

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2007


    My 5 cents worth...

    Most replies to ANDYF has gone along the line of, THAT LOOKS DANGEROUS, I am sure that ANDYF has taken some form of Precausion before performing these shows...?

    Instead of attacking, ANDYF please give our souls rest and explain that you have taken some safty precausion...?


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Charleston, SC


    Quote Originally Posted by werner1619 View Post
    I am sure that ANDYF has taken some form of Precausion before performing these shows...?
    You're sure? How? Do you know him personally, or have you been to one of his shows before?

    Well, if he has taken precautions, he hasn't said anything about them so far. He has been quite defensive about the show, and I can understand why he feels like he's being attacked, but the normal response would be to *prove* that what you are doing is safe instead of just claiming that your 15 years of experience is enough.

    I suspect that he is relying on some intuitive ideas about the scan pattern (like James Stewart posted in his example above) to decide whether the show is safe or not. Unfortunately, as James also pointed out, those assumptions would be grossly incorrect. Just because he has been doing it this way for a long time doesn't mean it's right.
    ANDYF please give our souls rest and explain that you have taken some safty precausion...?
    I agree. It would be very refreshing to read about the calculations that were performed to ensure that the show was safe. However, I fear that Marc is correct and that the calculations were not done. The show certainly looks unsafe to me.


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