Some TraceIT some Lazerboy

[heroic]

Libel- 2.anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents

For a statement to be libellous it must be an intentional misrepresentation and it must be intentionally malicious or damaging.

In fact, I don't really care either way. I just want my laser to work properly, which right now, it doesn't. It makes me sad. I don't like being sad. :-(

As for the "quality product"- the hardware might be totally awesome, but the software could do with being dragged into, if not the 21st century, then at least the late nineties. A real Mac version would be nice (most VJs use Macs, because that's where Modul8 runs). Of course that's not going to happen while it's all written in Delphi, so I understand that there's a major obstacle there. Opening the FB3 USB protocol so that other people could write drivers would be nice- I know, Bill says there's secret sauce in there, but I don't think there can be that much. I get equally good results from the EasyLase, and Joachim Mueller is totally open about that kind of thing.

Pangolin's software kinda reminds me of the situation in the telecoms market in the early 90s. There were systems that could integrate this and that, but they weren't open and they were very proprietary. There were a few people using such systems and the market was very small. Eventually some company came along and offered an open-standards system at a low cost, and the market exploded. Everyone who offered open-standards products got rich, and the original companies offering the closed-standards software basically died off.

I genuinely believe that with the advent of low-cost DPSS lasers and relatively cheap scansets, every DJ and VJ could have a high performance animation-scanning laser system but two things have to happen before it's going to become possible. Firstly, the software has to get a whole lot cheaper and a whole lot more flexible. Secondly, everything has to be available as an off-the-shelf system. The NeoLaser projectors and other cheap chinese projectors go a long way towards doing this, but while it's all predicated on software like CypherLite, it's just never going to happen. Too many artificial restrictions, too many things you have to pay for. And no way to run from a tapped beat. A lot of these guys can't afford another $500 for software after they've spent $4000 on a projector, and it's not reasonable to expect them to do so either.

The DJ/VJ market can shift hundreds of thousands of units a year globally, but while you're charging $1500 for a file format converter, that's never going to happen. Surely you must see that I'm not talking trash about Pangolin here- I'm just sad that they don't see this industry the same way I do- as a thing of vast potential that's... just not quite there yet.

Personally, if I were running a laser show software and hardware company, I'd be falling over myself to get the open source community involved. Some of those guys are really scary smart, and- this is the great part- they'll write the clever new software for you! for free! for nothing but props and kudos! All you need to do is give them specs and they'll do the rest for you. Do you really think software like LaserLine or LaserBoy would be using hacked soundcards and the EasyLase if the FB3's software interface were open? *everyone* likes the FB3. It's the industry standard. But it's an industry standard that we can't do anything with other than what Pangolin wants us to. As an engineer and an artist, that makes me cry into my keyboard. :-(

So, Sorry Bill if I came off as unnecessarily abrasive. I'd just lost four hours of work to a TraceIT crash when I wrote the email way above up there. I know you know the feeling. And no, I'm not just some kid- I'm a professional and I know software and hardware, so if you want to get me a debug build of the drivers I'll help out tracking down the problem any way I can. I want this fixed!

thanks,

-J.

[Dr Laser]

I would not bash Pangolin. The fact is that I'm running a different system but still I respect Pangolin what they do. Also there is a big gap between amateur systems and pro systems. It's like in lighting. It's like comparing MAC250KR/EN to Mania scx500. All my complains were super expensive converters but now I found a solution. I very doubt that open source community can do something about laser systems on professional level. But they can write amazing small programs that make life sooo much easier. CATMover and Laserboy are 2 tools I can't live without.

[James Lehman]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I kinda' like it when someone makes an effort to kick me in the teeth, in public.

It gives me a perfectly good reason and opporunity to correct them.

I would never write or say anything to make someone else want to shut up.

I like conversation.

I have yet to be wounded by words.

James.

[heroic]

Also there is a big gap between amateur systems and pro systems.

Why?

We live in a world where a twin-processor 2 GHz computer can be bought for under a thousand dollars. Software, once it is developed, is distributed for zero incremental cost. It used to be that a UNIX OS would cost you several thousand dollars; now you can get it for free, and it is good, better than the commercial UNIXes used to be. A 24/96 DAC costs ten dollars. A microcontroller goes for under a buck.

Asides from obvious issues of laser power (good crystals cost money...) and build quality, we're not talking about computationally difficult or even sharp realtime constraints here. There's no inherent reason why any of this stuff has to cost as much as it does.

There are always two ways you can run a business. You can price high, sell a very few units, and engineer a scarcity, or you can price low and go for volume. I'd love to see a world where every club has a laser or three, and with the advent of cheap DPSS lasers and low-cost Chinese scanner manufacture, we're almost there. The missing link is in the controllers, the software and the packaging. I'm almost begging you, Mr. Benner, please plug that gap! Isn't that what we all want to see- lasers becoming a mass market?

I had to go through so much trouble to get the lasers I have, and to get them running was even more difficult. Club owners and VJs won't go that far. You have to meet them halfway! The low-cost software is a good start, but it needs to be better, cheaper, more capable. I *know* you can do it, and I know you'd love to be selling a million units a year.

Here are some ideas that would make it happen almost without doing anything:

i) ILDA defines a USB Class for lasers, so any software can work with any DAC.

ii) Pangolin et al work with laser manufacturers to supply turnkey systems that are guaranteed to work- a bit like the Multimedia PC specification of the old days, you set a spec and then help people work to it; you give them a badge they can use that means "we adhere to the spec".

iii) Sealed unit pre-tuned smart scanners with a defined physical interface to laser modules that just plug together. It all talks USB. Got a nice scanner? Want to upgrade the laser? Just plug it onto a better laser module.

I guess I'm just frustrated at how difficult it seems to be to get that message through. The world loves lasers. The response from people at my gigs who've seen this stuff running has been overwhelmingly positive. I've got bookings simply by showing the laser. I want to work towards a world where lasers are commonplace, just because I think they're so freaking cool, and Pangolin has some cool products- but why should a single-board computer, a DAC and a CD drive cost over a thousand dollars? My laptop didn't cost that much! When you aim to sell in volume, you can get cheaper, and that gets the kit into the hands of artists, and that's good for the world. Really!

I hope you understand, I'm not bashing Pangolin. I'm bashing the entire laser industry- let's have more, better, cheaper, faster, brighter, the way the computer industry rolls. It's the future!

I very doubt that open source community can do something about laser systems on professional level.

Linux has killed SCO Unix, BSDI and Solaris. Linux is free. Linux is eating Microsoft's lunch on the server side. I don't see why this is true... we just have to get more people working together. James has made an amazing effort to get involvement, and yes, he's making great strides.

There are other open source laser control programs. Take a look at LaserLine 2: http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/projects/LaserLine

When this gets moving it's going to make serious waves. I'm also working on a project of my own, a live performance program somewhat similar to Modul8 (if you haven't seen this, check it out too), except open source and for lasers rather than video.

There are lots of other laser show projects out there, and with lasers getting cheaper and more powerful every year, the number of people playing with them increases. I really think a big sea change is upon the laser industry and it falls to the incumbents to make themselves a part of the new world- otherwise, they can end up like SCO Group... not good!

-J.

[Dr Laser]

What about self interest,. Do you really want every Joe Blow having a powerful laser. I don't. I don't wanna lasers to become a mass market. Why? First... like I said. Self interest. Then populatiry will overfeed the market and lasers will not be something special. Pop culture will kill laser magic. Also there is an issue of safety. I know about it. Many others on the forum know about it. Regular dude will NOT!. It'll cuz a flood of lawsuits and....ban of lasers all together. Like I said my point was high prices of converters. All it did is slowed down creative process. Honestly I'm sick and tired hearing about Pink Floyd shows...... What about new shows.?!?! Stop playing museum ADAT shows from early mid 90s.

PS. I love PF...don't get me wrong!

[James Lehman]

What about self interest

That's it for me!

I get a little PO'ed every now and then about not being heard when I'm trying to save the world, but....

In the long run, it's all because I love to do what I'm doing and I want to be "the guy" who did it right and therefore can tell everyone else how to do it! It is 100% an ego trip. I know that computer programming talent in this specific field is rare. With a market flooded by MS programmers, computer programming talent is just plain rare. Occasionally, I get a little snotty (like just then), but that is only because I have the snot to back it up.

Putting my code out there in open source is "a boot in the ass". I know there are very few people who have any idea of what that is about. But, it stakes my claim. It proves that it is not derivative. It's mine.

I said a few years ago that the only thing that won't come out of China is the technology and the software.

I also said that SS lasers would become very affordable.

As far as "Joe Blow" is concerned, I get your point, and I agree about safety issues, but I'm not worried about anybody knocking me off of my hill.

James.

PS You're right. I don't have many friends. But the friends that I have understand me.

[heroic]

What about self interest,. Do you really want every Joe Blow having a powerful laser.

Yes. Putting tools in the hands of artists is ALWAYS a good thing.

Then populatiry will overfeed the market and lasers will not be something special.

Because cheap and easily available synthesizers have killed electronic music! Oh, wait.

Pop culture will kill laser magic. Also there is an issue of safety. I know about it. Many others on the forum know about it. Regular dude will NOT!

This is a technological and regulatory problem that is already solved.

[carmangary]

With a market flooded by MS programmers, computer programming talent is just plain rare.

That makes me snicker, a lot.

[James Lehman]

That makes me snicker, a lot.

That was the point, my friend.

[Pangolin]

Nope. It happens with all the FB3 software; it seems to be an incompatibility between the VMWare Fusion USB system and the FB3 driver. It happens with CypherLite, LivePro (even though I don't have a license, it kills the machine on exit), and all the LAStudio software, even TraceIT. It is very predictable: on closing the program, the VMWare machine dies with a VMX exception: signal 12 caught.

Please try something. Try LiveQUICK (or, as you wrote above CypherLITE) with no hardware attached. See if you still have the problem. Then report your results to me. That will determine if there is a problem with the driver or something else.

Also, every time our software runs, it creates a LOG file. These are found in the LOG folder. If you send us the LOG file, it tells us a tremendous amount about problems encountered. This is why it's always important to contact us when you have a problem -- so that we can analyze the problem and come to a quick solution.

I understand that many companies with disproportionate market share offer these.

Well, I would look at it a different way. I would say smart companies, or those companies who want to ensure customer satisfaction offers these.

Surely you must see that I'm not talking trash about Pangolin here- I'm just sad that they don't see this industry the same way
I do

I actually like to speak with people who see things differently than we do. That's how we grow. And heck, we're always looking for such people to hire! So if you think and look at things differently than we do, contact us and see if we can work out some mutually-beneficial employment arrangement .

So, Sorry Bill if I came off as unnecessarily abrasive. I'd just lost four hours of work to a TraceIT crash when I wrote the email way above up there.

We don't want anyone to become abrasive or to lose hours of work. What we DO want is for people to contact us when there are problems, so that we can fix them -- not only for you, but for everyone else.

By the way, if you will be at the upcoming SELEM, we will show you some of what we are working on “in the lab” and see if you still think it needs to be brought into the 21st century…



Best regards,

William Benner