View Poll Results: Do u think a simple well explained step by step guide for new builders would be good?

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  • Yes, it can prevent dangerous and expensive mistakes and help the build

    29 72.50%
  • No, laser building should remain a mystery and the danger to eyes is part of the fun

    11 27.50%
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Thread: How to build thread

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan View Post

    Like I also, say, I could mount a projector overhead, but its almost certain that with sound to light, some patterns would project down anyway



    You need to learn alot!!!
    To stop all beams projections etc,Fron hitting the crowd that is where beam blocks,beam masking etc. comes into effect.

  2. #42
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    RGB -

    We all appreciate your enthusiasm (up to a point), but comments such as
    "However simply not audience scanning isn't an option" is NOT going to get you a lot of support here, especially when it sounds as if you're willing to put safety features in place ONLY if you can do it cheaply!! Basically, you're coming across as "I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to do what I want"..NOT good!!

    Most of us that post on here are VERY aware that audience scanning is very prevalent in Europe, and that it CAN be done safely. We are all also VERY aware, unfortunately, that the safety aspects are frequently ignored, which is beginning to have legal ramifications for the industry WORLD WIDE, in addition to the health hazards to the audiences. The subject is very much on the minds of some VERY senior members involved in the laser display industry (And we got that "straight from the horse 's mouth", so to speak, as many of us had the fortune of hearing talks, in person, about that VERY subject from the president of Pangolin AND the president of the International Laser Display Association, who attended this past weekend's SELEM meet).

    You need to back up a bit and approach this SAFELY, as a hobby, one step at a time. Forget about trying to be like all those "mobile disco operators" and don't try to use this to improve your finances, because as most folks who have been in the business for YEARS will tell you, making money in the business takes a LONG time!! Jumping straight into audience scanning is something that NO reputable laser operator would do on ANY scale without experience and the proper equipment in place first.

    Now, if you go back through this thread, I think you'll see a LOT of people are basically telling you the same thing over and over and over....

    Hmmm, maybe we know what we're talking about?

    Heed the advice that's been posted, and you'll get a lot of support here.

    Keep up with "audence scanning, no matter what" attitude, and you can expect the "verbal whippings" to continue.....
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  3. #43
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    RGB-

    sorry to say i am getting a little disappointed. i saw the links you posted. i have seen MILLIONS of crowd scaning videos and pictures. but the "i can do it because they do it" attitude quite frankly pisses me off. crowd scanning with 50mW or 500 WATTS is DANGEROUS and should only be done by qualified, trained professionals with the PROPER equipment.

    you came here and asked us our opinions and asked us for advice. but when we give it to you, you simply dismiss it as...nah, that isnt valid. well, it IS valid. are you trying to justify your poor decisions to us or are you trying to justify it for yourself?

    of course there are very few reprted injuries of scanning. of course there are millions of crowd scanning lasers every night. but, that doesnt make them safe or responsible!

    there are millions of illegal guns purchased and used everyday illegally and unsafely with no reported injuries. it doesnt make it right. there are milions of illegal underage drinkers every night at parties with no reported injuries. that doesnt make it legal, safe and responsible to do.

    you came to a professional / hobbyist laser forum where 99% of the members have SERIOUS amounts of money, time, education, dedication, discipline and most of all RESPECT devoted to this art form. it is insulting when a "newbie" comes along and tries to discredit of all things, SAFETY to perform a show that puts its audience at risk. we all work VERY hard (as corny as it may sound to you or others) to convey safety aspects of lasers and performances as one of the MAIN practices of our profession.

    i am a LEGAL, LICENSED, FOLLOW THE RULES Laser company in the U.S. i DIRECTLY get FU*KED with regulations and paperwork and licensing and variances as a DIRECT result of EXACTLY what you plan on doing!! it may seem negligible to you. you are just using a lil 300mW RGY laser projector. but it ISNT negligible!

    a .22 caliber hand gun can hurt someone (or kill) just as easily as a M-16 machine gun. yet, to own EITHER of them you need proper licensing and proper regulations to use them justifiably.

    if you are trying to convey to US that YOU can perform a safe, reliable, and harmless audience scan laser show you came to the wrong forum! i dont think you will "blast peoples retians" and leave their exploded eye balls on your back lawn. OF COURSE NOT! BUT, the fact remains that it is UNSAFE and potentially dangerous!! you have NEVER performed a laser light show before. how can you honestly sit there and think you can perform a SAFE laser show WITH a SAFE and PROPER audience scan???

    i have been doing shows for 3 years PROFESSIONALLY. and even if i had the money to purchase the proper equipment and software from pangolin and whomever else, i STILL wouldnt do a audince scan show. not for years. i still have a SHIT LOAD to learn!!! there are TOO MANY "what ifs!!"

    PLEASE, respect the FACTS of some of what you read here. what we provided is fact and scientific. what you provide is "youtube videos" and, "they do it so i can do it..." mentality

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  4. #44
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    Don't mean to insult you Marc. I don't have any intention to perform shows for money or to the general public and as I said above, I don't think its safe just because others have done it although equally as I've said, with popular brands in S2L there doesn't seem to be any data to back up that its unsafe. However, I acknowledge that the lack of data doesn't prove its safe either.

    I'm just trying to explore the best way of putting on a show for my personal friends and family in the safest way possible. Most people just go ahead and do it anyway as you've seen. At least I'm exploring it with you, in an attempt to try to safen things up. I acknowledge that without MPE calulations it isn't possible to guarantee its safe.

    Its actually good to know that some of the senior figures at Pangolin and ILDA are discussing how to address this. Maybe we can get some kind of manufacturer standard to ensure S2L patterns don't exceed MPE values and to ensure that if a projector is mounted at a certain height above an audience, the S2L engine doesn't repeat scans on the audience in such a way as to result in an overall breach of MPE either. I'm sure it could be programmed, but no doubt its going to take some kind of industry agreement to ensure that it is.

    The fact their meeting also makes me hopeful that perhaps we'll see some comprehensive but simple to use MPE software developed and made freely available so those using DMX or ILDA can calculate shows without having to be maths geniuses as laser use has gone way beyond the industry and out to the public now.

    Its true I don't see the point in putting on a show without A Scanning. Most people would just see such a show as cr*p which kind of makes it pointless. However, equally like I say. I want to see as much safety as possible. I personally see this as an industry failing as in my opinion, they need to do more to help ordinary users make their shows safe. At the moment its very much a sell the projector then leave it up to you attitude which if it was a simple as driving might be ok, but unfortunately it isn't. MPE is complex and S2L rules out MPE calcs anyway as an end user, you never know what its programmed to do.

    I'm keen to see any show is as safe as possible, but as we both know in sound to light you're in the hands of the projector manufacturer as only they know what is programmed. In ILDA, its easier because then you can start to take some proper responsibility and work out the safety of the show down to a tee although doing so isn't easy without PC assistance or a degree in mathematics! Hence the reason I was seeking out the software.

  5. #45
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    Dude -

    Until you've actually seen a good BEAM show in the proper environment, don't rule them out. Perhaps you need to step outside the "big trance club fan" box you seem to be so hung up in and see what can REALLY be done with proper laser equipment! Trust me, good beam shows are crowd pleasers - the impromptu shows we threw together at SELEM were INCREDIBLE. You might be surprised how effective even an inexpensive system could be when used safely in this manner! And with limited space to display a show, the low-power systems would probably work out just fine!!

    As far as ensuring that an off-the shelf S2L projector meets MPE requirements - I think you'd find that once that happens, that particular piece of equipment would no longer be the affordable off-the-shelf system it started out to be! The industry standard that is being developed for this safety equipment requires, among many other things, precise scanner controls and projector safety devices that you probably would NEVER find in the inexpensive off-the-shelf systems.

    Also, as referred to in earlier posts in this thread - proper laser display systems ARE expensive, and ARE NOT meant to be in the hands of everyone! Lasers are inherently potentially VERY dangerous when not used correctly, and as such do NOT need to be in the hands of the general population. When it comes to lasers, there really should be no "ordinary user" - by default, everyone that uses them assumes as much responsibility as someone who uses firearms (just ask anyone in the military that's ever worked with lasers), and I believe as time progresses (soon, possibly!) you'll see legislation in the U.S. AND in Europe that drives that fact home! Keep in mind - once a laser projector power (mw) output gets to triple digits, you're now dealing with lasers that have the same strength the MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS use to perform surgeries!!

    If you REALLY want to "explore the best way of putting on a show for my personal friends and family in the safest way possible", FORGET the frickin' audience scanning until you have developed considerable HANDS ON experience with the hazards involved in using lasers. Even if you start out with one of the less-expensive pre-built S2L units, you can spend time with it, find out its capabilities, put together a soundtrack on your stereo that even non-trance club fans might enjoy, put some smoke in the house with an inexpensive fogger unit or spray, aim the projector in a SAFE direction, and have fun! Trust me - you'll be your own worst critic, since most people that aren't around lasers a lot (which is most people!) will be blown away by even the most basic beam or graphics show if it is even CLOSE to being synchronized to music!!

    So, as mentioned previously - show interest in something OTHER than audience scanning, and you'll get lots of support here!!
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  6. #46
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    Hi Al,

    There are two sides to this coin. 1) your own eyes, and 2) the eyes of your friends.

    If you want to stand in front of your projector and experience audience scanning for yourself, you have every right to do that - regardless of whether it's safe or not.

    But as soon as you invite your friends or relatives to do the same thing, you are crossing a line. It doesn't matter if you're charging for the show or not. Once you put someone else's eyes at risk, you're being irresponsible - and you become liable for any damage you cause.

    So forget about the whole "these shows are only for my friends in my backyard" excuse. You are still putting their eyes at risk if you audience-scan.

    Yes, audience scanning is prevalent throughout Europe. That doesn't mean it's being done correctly. The fact that it's a common practice doesn't make it right *or* safe. (For example, crystal meth use is unfortunately rather common among truckers, ravers, and college students here in the US. Does that mean it's safe? Of course not.)

    Just because the laws governing laser exposure haven't been enforced as strictly in Europe as they have here in the US doesn't mean that there are no laws, or that you have free reign to do whatever you want without consequence.

    Furthermore, the lack of reported eye injuries is *not* an indicator that the shows are safe. As numerous people have pointed out before, the brain is very good at covering up defects in your vision. (Did you know you have a blind spot in both eyes that covers over 10% of your vision field? Didn't think so. We all have it; it's formed where the optic nerve attaches to the retina. Google it.) People may have many small blind spots that they don't even know about. (At least, not until they're suddenly surprised by something that jumps into their visual field "from out of nowhere".)

    Audience scanning is hard to do correctly. That's why there isn't a "simple yet comprehensive software package" out there that allows you to calculate the MPE. It's actually a very involved calculation. (Well, three separate calculations, actually.) The bulk of the shows you refered to were probably *not* certified using these calculations.

    Then too, there are other parts of the puzzle that you're forgetting. Such as a scan-fail interlock. Or a software failure safeguard. These items are difficult to work around, and probably are beyond the abilities of all but the most ingenious hobbyists. The one truely "safe" system that I'm aware of actually diverges the beams before they leave the projector, so that even if you get hit with a static beam directly in the eye for a quarter of a second (which in theory should never happen because of the other safety hardware in place), the beam intensity will still be below Class 3A limits. But that system is very expensive and is only available when bundled with a new projector as part of an integrated package.

    I agree with you in that I think the industry does bear some responsibilty here, because while there are several companies selling projectors, very few (if any) of them are pushing for safety standards to go along with those projectors. Audience scanning in particular is a complicated issue, and it seems that most projector manufacturers would rather leave it up to the end user to ensure that the show is safe than try to design specific safety features into their projectors.

    But make no mistake. *You* will ultimately be held responsible for any injury that results from the use of your projector. Can you imagine trying to defend yourself in a lawsuit resulting from such an injury? Can you imagine trying to explain why you violated the internationally accepted standards for eye exposure? (How would you tell that to a judge or jury?)

    Can you imagine how silly you would sound if you said something like, "Well, these other laser show people seem to be doing the same thing, so I thought I would be OK..." Do you really want to take the chance that one day you might find yourself in a court room trying to justify your complete disregard for the rules surrounding laser display systems? (Or, indeed, find yourself in a court room only to be forced to admit that you don't even *know* what those standards are, much less how to calculate the exposure levels...) This is the stuff that nightmares are made of.

    True, you live in the UK, whereas a lot of the people here live in the United States of lawyers and large settlement payments for America. So perhaps you *could* get away with your shows - flying under the radar as it were - because of the lax enforcement and generally favorable legal climate in your country. But that's a pretty lame excuse for gambling with other people's eyes, don't you think?

    If I were you, I wouldn't spend a dime until you've taken the time to do a lot more reading on the subject. This forum is a good starting place, but there are other resources that you'll want to check into as well. I'm sure some of your countrymen can point you towards the relevent standards for the UK. After you've become more familiar with the risks involved, you'll be in a better position to decide where you want to go from there.

    Adam

  7. #47
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    You make some good points Adam and contrary to some conclusions jumped to I am all ears. I'm trying my best to come up with solutions to ensure my safety and those of others. The difficult part is that the industry isn't doing much to help in that regard although I take some points on costs here.

    I've been out and measured my potential display area (car port) its 12m (39 feet) by 3.2m (10.4 feet) and approx 3m (9.8 feet high).

    From what you're all saying I suppose I ought to give an aerial display a go, but given that I the highest I can mount the projector is about 2.5 m (8 feet) I can't guarantee that in sound to light it won't project onto the audience at any point. Its all going to be down to how its S2L software is programmed in relation to how low below the projector beams are aimed. There may also be a problem at maximum height as the upwards beams will project and be lost onto the structural beams breaking the patterns. I suppose therefore that max height might even be around 7.5 feet. I know blanking was mentioned earlier but usually this is used in relation to ILDA control isn't it where the patterns are desinged to all take place above the blanking plate. Surely putting a blanking plate on a projector in S2L mode could have some unexpected display results. Also, what is going to ge the effect of reflecting the beam back inside the unit against potentially the internal wiring for instance?

  8. #48
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    see...

    NOW youre talkin.

    i would MUCH rather see you place the laser above heads like youre talkin about. even if it isnt at the deisred 3 meters, at least you arent scanning your crowd.

    what you should do is beam mask your aperture. set up your laser at the correct height. project your show and put a piece of aluminum tape (you can buy at almost any hardware store) over the aperture at a point where the beams start to project too low. it takes about 2 minutes to do this and guarantees a safe show! and it still looks GOOD!!

    my apologies if i got harsh before. just seemd like you were stuck in your "they do it so i can do it" mentality. and thats a big NO-NO in this industry.

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan View Post
    I've been out and measured my potential display area (car port) its 12m (39 feet) by 3.2m (10.4 feet) and approx 3m (9.8 feet high).
    That's a pretty long car port! I think you can make that work... I'd place the projector on a 5 or 6 ft tall stand at the far end and aim it up at ~ 30 degrees or so. That way the beams should strike the roof well before the mid-point of the car port. Just before that point in the car port, you place a couple tables across the width of the car port to stop anyone from going further back. On top of the table you place your fog machine and maybe a fan blowing towards the projector. (You'll only need to run the fan for short bursts, if at all.)

    Now hang some sheets of plastic on the sides of the carport to hold the fog in place. (Do the same thing for the end of the car port at the far end, where the projector is.) Now people can come and go via the near (open) end of the car port, and the fog will tend to stay contained inside.

    Set up a set of speakers near the table (or even under them) and hook up your sound system. Get everyone out, put on some safety goggles, and then turn on the laser. Watch the beams as they play around the far side of the car port. If any of the beams reach out past the mid-point (where the tables are), then you need to either increase the mounting angle of the projector or raise the height of the stand it's sitting on.

    Once you're sure everything is safe from the tables on back, invite your gests in and party all night...

    Note that this assumes that the roof of the car port is not reflective. (Most of them are painted, while some are canvas or plastic, but if yours is bare aluminum you may need to cover it with a sheet to prevent the beams from reflecting off the shiny aluminum.)

    I've done setups like this in my home, and believe me - if you can get it dark inside that car port, a 100 mw projector will look AWESOME inside there with just a little fog. The sheets of plastic will hold the fog in place quite nicely. (If you use dark plastic sheeting, you might be able to pull this off during the day!)

    The key here is that the projector is going to have a maximum scan angle, and you need to allow for that so that the beams always terminate on the ceiling before the half-way point. If most of the patterns are small, and it only scans really wide every once in a great while, then you may want to consider masking the projector by attaching a metal plate securely to the front of the projector to block beams that try to exit at a low angle.
    There may also be a problem at maximum height as the upwards beams will project and be lost onto the structural beams breaking the patterns.
    The patterns really don't matter for a beam show. All you want to see are the beams in the air. The actual scanned image is often never apparent to the audience. (They can't tell the difference between a hexagon and an octagon, for example.)
    Surely putting a blanking plate on a projector in S2L mode could have some unexpected display results.
    I think you're confusing blanking (modulation of the lasers) with a shutter (stops all laser output), or possibly with a mask (blocks output below or above a given plane). Blanking is required whenever you want to move the beam to a new spot to start a drawing, but you don't want the "trace" line to show. Imagine 3 circles that are not touching. To re-create that with a set of scanners, you have to turn the laser off as the scanners move from one circle to the next. (Like lifting the pen from the page if you were drawing the figures.) That's what blanking is for. Without it, the circles would be connected by lines.

    A shutter is a safety device that physically blocks the beam before it gets to the scanners. It's normally controlled by the software, and it should close whenever the software says that there should be no output. It's also supposed to be connected to your safety circuitry so that if a cable is unplugged or someone presses the emergency stop switch, the shutter will close automatically.

    Masks are metal plates that can be attached to the projector to prevent a beam from being directed below (or above, or to the side) of a given plane. Usually you see them used to prevent beams from scanning below a given height. They must be securely attached to the projector so they can't slip or fall off.
    Also, what is going to ge the effect of reflecting the beam back inside the unit against potentially the internal wiring for instance?
    There shouldn't be any potentially reflective surfaces in the audience, unless they are part of the show and are specifically aimed in a safe direction beforehand. Likewise, the shutter (and mask, if used) needs to be non-reflective and solid enough to withstand any local heating caused by the laser. Having said that, for lower power projectors (under a watt) this shouldn't be a major concern. But for larger lasers, the shutter may need to be made of special material or have active cooling on it to remove heat.

    Reflecting the beam back inside the projector can be an issue for direct injection red diodes. Often this can cause damage to the didoe. (Search the forums here, or Sams Laser FAQ, for more info on this) But from a wiring standpoint it shouldn't be an issue. The beam shouldn't be able to access the wiring in the first place, and in any event lower power projectors simply don't produce enough power to damage wires or electronics. Nevertheless, it's not a good idea to be bouncing beams back inside your projector!

    Adam

  10. #50
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    Adam sounds workeable.

    5 ft looks a pretty good platform height from the point of view of seeing the beams on the way up.

    Can you get safety goggles to filter multiple colours ie RGY?

    Whats the best type of smoke to get?

    I don't have a machine so options are open. I had thought about a hazer as its quieter and more subtle but wasn't sure it would out put enough to make up for losses through draughts / people coming and going.

    On the smoke machine front, I've seen the GVG 1500 Watt on youtube and it looks awesome albeit its not very quiet in operation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQODJunema0 Extremely fast / high output so I expect the slightest puff would be enough.

    Other suggestions?

    Finally, what about the smoke liquid itself. I've heard that the oil based is bad for you and leaves residues so its better to go for water based. That said, I also know it comes in different forms - heavy, med and light with different durations of dispersal - any suggestions? Bear in mind being a BBQ I don't want to put people off the food or leave them choking. A hazy effect rather than a pea souper would be ideal provide the beam definition is good - I hate the faded beam look!

    EDIT I've just seen a Martin 5500 cheaper albeit it doesn't look as powerful on Youtube.

    I want to keep the smoke budget as low as possible but that said I don't want a peice of cr*p.
    Last edited by White-Light; 08-21-2008 at 15:25.

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