A different way to make shows: Improvements in 3D rendering

[James Lehman]

WAV has so many advantages... you can compress it to MP3, you can stream it over the internet, you can even use your mp3-player to control your projector

I believe that it is possible to compress laser vector data that is in the wave format, but not with any of the established lossy compression technologies.

Probably the best way to do it would be to strip out all of the vertices that are not absolutely necessary to depict the art and then bit reduce the resolution of what is left, just to the point before it makes a noticeable effect on the quality of the image. Then, a lossless technology like zip could be applied to that information before it gets sent out over a wire. That way, everything about the art can be fully recovered at the other end.

James.

[decix]

That was a JOKE! Seen those smilies?

[James Lehman]

Unless, of course, he is the one telling the virtually the whole industry they are wrong, and presents his viewpoint as my way is THE only way, not just an alternative, and that everyone else is wrong. You really need to go back and read some of his mult-page tirade threads from start to finish!

....

... without all the "corporate vs. independent developer" or "my file format is better than your file format" unnecessary bullshit tossed in!!

Yes! I agree. I think anyone who really wants to see it for what it is should read everything I've ever written about it!

And by the way... "they are wrong". Furthermore, it isn't "my way". It's "their way". They came up with a perfectly good solution and then they ruined it.

An international standard, by definition, is a description of one-and-only-one way to do something. If not, it's not a STANDARD!

How would you like to have all of your helicopter control mechanisms designed by the ILDA Technical Standards and Specifications Committee, with no oversight and no one else to answer to?

James.

[soforene]

....While options are great, reading the same rants over and over about how the industry is wrong (especially when so many of us feel fortunate to be quite happily involved with portions of that industry) is not!!

But Randy, you are forgetting a very important forum option.

[Stuka]

True

Now if we could only figure out how to make it work without actually having to log in first ....

[Pangolin]

I think most would agree that the exchange between Drlava and Pangolin (and for that matter, between most independent developers and Pangolin, if you search through past threads) has been both very cordial, and mutually supportive. Overall, that is generally the case throughout this forum, which is one of the reasons a lot of us stick around!

Thanks for bringing some sanity back to this thread Randy!

I get a vibe that some people think "independent = good" and "corporate = bad", but I don't see these people putting the connection together to see the benefits. Let me give you a few prime examples:

Yes, we developed a plug-in for 3D Studio MAX, but it was an expensive option for people. I recognized that. If you buy the software at retail prices... 3D Studio MAX costs $3500 or more! So, regardless of the cost of any additional plug-ins involved, that's an expensive proposition.

So, as time ran some opportunities had arisen that let us improve the situation. We were approached by an "independent" girl named Cathleen Poppe, who wanted to work for Pangolin as an intern. She was in university doing 3D graphics studies, but could not really find an opportunity to work on real projects. We brought her in – paid for her flight, housing, meals, etc. so that she could work on a project SHE wanted to and that SHE chose for herself – porting our plug-in technology to Cinema 4D, and then adding Lighting, Shading, Shadows and Textures to that program. The result is that now we have a plug-in that is similar to our plug-in for 3D Studio MAX, but a whole lot less expensive for people.

At the time we started, Cinema 4D could be purchased for $600, and we give away the plug-in for free to most of our users. Also, as another result, the company MAXON that makes Cinema 4D were so impressed by her work, that they hired her. Had she stayed not come to Pangolin, the likeliness is that this "independent" girl might have never been able to work on advanced graphics project, and also VERY LIKELY never would have gotten a job with MAXON or any other 3D software company (and yes, I can say that because of how competitive I know the 3D software business to be in terms of hiring – as proof, keep reading...).

But it is still too expensive. Again, if you buy at retail prices... you spend $600 or more just for Cinema 4D alone, without any additional software.

So to help these costs even more, we then sought the help of another "independent" person named Alex Stompel. You can see his work and read about him at www.4dblue.com. After working at Electronic Arts (the video game people) in a not very glamorous position, he started working on a software package called 4D Blue. If you take a close look at the screen shots, you will see some resemblance to what I posted above.

This "independent" person was working on this program, mostly on a hobbyist level. But he reached a point, both time-wise and financially-wise where this became impossible to do. If you take a look at the 4D Blue site you will get the impression that the development went strong for a while, and then, basically, stopped. You also get the impression that, despite how brilliant Alex was, it was difficult or impossible for him to land a job with a major 3D software company.

We made an arrangement with him, to finance his work, and also contributed a lot of technology of our own as well. The result is a program that is REALLY STRONG, and that Alex (remember, an independent hobbyist-type) is now able to do the work he wanted to do all along. And the FINAL result is a program that does most of what 3D Studio MAX and Cinema 4D does -- but one that we can offer FOR FREE to our clients. (And also, by the way, Alex now works as a contractor for a major 3D software company as well, thanks in part to our connection.)

So you see, the involvement of a corporate entity like Pangolin, providing both the financial means and also technological means, can be a GOOD thing, both for the individuals involved, and also for the industry at large. And yet... there are those people who refuse to make that connection.

In the case of Pangolin, it's not like there is this corporate entity buying up everything in site for the purpose of creating a monopoly and RAISING prices. Instead we are forging alliances, when and where possible, so that we can LOWER prices and help spread the technology downward, not upward. Basically, our work, both with "independent" scanner manufacturers, "independent" laser manufacturers and "independent" software people results in lower prices and hobbyist types being able to have access to this technology. After all, without Pangolin, only the richest people would have access to these tools!

I do applaud the work of Dr. Lava, and have said so in every relevant forum post so far. I applaud the work of all of the "independent" guys (and girls) out there. As long as they have a way to feed themselves and have enough time, then I am sure they can do great work. But there are also brilliant people out there who want to be involved, but can't because they DON'T have a way of feeding themselves, and DON'T have the time, and also DON’T have access to the technology. Our financial and technological contributions make it possible for THESE guys to do the work that they love, so that ALL people have access to it.

Sometimes, the only way someone can work on their hobby is if they have money to do so. In fact, this is the case a lot of the time. We generally make this possible, as much as we can. This is not only the case with the people who I mentioned above, but many others as well. People contact me and say "hey, I would like to do this, but I can't because of xxx. Can you help me"? I get that kind of email a lot! Basically, we help in any way we can.

BUT, none of this would be possible if we weren't actually making money by selling software TO PROFESSIONALS!

Also, despite how talented hobbyists are, I just haven't seen the kind of artistic creativity that I do in professionals. By Pangolin selling our systems to professionals, who then use our systems to make the best shows out there (I can make this statement because of the number of awards won), and then us making deals with them to make their shows available TO EVERYONE, including hobbyists... well, I hope you can see where all of this is going.

Sure, the Dr. Lavas of the world are doing great work. But could we imagine where this industry would be without Pangolin? (Remember, it is not only the software that comes from Pangolin, but also much of the behind-the-scenes technologies within products we don't even make, such as scanners and lasers).

So I hope this helps to shed some light that the philosophy that "independent = good" and "corporate = bad" is not necessarily true. If we were AT&T or Microsoft, I could see the concern, especially based on some of their past practices. But this is Pangolin we are talking about here and, I guess not many people remember that I too started out as a hobbyist, so that’s why I like to help hobbyists and laser enthusiasts as much as possible!!

Best regards,

William Benner

[DZ]

Well said, and many thanks for all the help and work that you've done for the industry. And for all the help you've given me over the years as I've been in and out of this hobby.

[Pitts]

I fully support DZ comments....

As I said in my earlier post the "referees" have long since made up thiier minds on this matter... and I don't think Pangolin is the loser on this front.

I have had personal experience with Bill's (pangolin's) generosity from technical assistance to on location training not to mention the odd dinner.

At no time did Bill see me as a big "corporate opportunity".. he knew I was a small business guy and yet I was treated with courtesy and gifted all this help which I can assure you is not normally the way corporates do business.

Bill among others is very generous to us all, be we hobbyists, small business or developers.. Its all about what goes around comes around.

Bill and the likes of Dr Lava etc all bring life to our Forum and hobby. We would be at a great loss without these guys..

So from me to all of you..

a big thank you..

Technical debates aside

Cheers

RAy
NZ

[drlava]

Had a look at the 4D blue program and it's very cool. It has a similar ease-of-use and look as 3d studio max (although slower) but he was releasing 'alpha' versions for free! With his current ties, however I wonder if there will be any further development on that program that will be posted on his site. While we're talking about free 3D software packages, Blender certainly deserves a mention as a fully featured 3D enviroment ripe for use as a laser show creation tool (TL is working on a plugin for producing ILDA), although blender has not nearly as intuitive a user interface, in fact it was downright frustrating to try to dive into and I usually go easy on free software. Also Maya personal learning edition deserves a mention as free 3D creation software.

Bill, you mentioned 'if you do it legally.. 3ds max costs $3500 or more'. This (maybe not intentionally) seems to imply that hobbyists who will end up using this software but who can't pay $3500 may not do it legally. For the record, legal, original, second-hand versions of 3D Studio Max, where the original owner has completely removed the software from their computers, come up for sale occasionally for $100-$300. These older versions are perfectly suited and capable for lasershow use as the advanced raytracing renderers and many of the new features of the latest versions are not needed.

Also, "Also, despite how talented hobbyists are, I just haven't seen the kind of artistic creativity that I do in professionals." You could also say that once a creative individual gathers and learns the tools well enough to produce great shows, they typically then want to sell them (becoming a professional) or do an equal trade. It's a matter of perspective. One of the goals of the ildaswap site in my opinion is to help enable the equal trading aspect of that equation, which at the same time would make the great show available to beginners as well, on ANY software platform.

[Dr Laser]

Professional shows?!?! Hmm. I've seen many pro shows and for me (I'm a theatrical light engineer with a theatrical staging background.) they look like a creation of a mathematic professor and not an artist. Cheesy plots, stupid story lines, old cheesy music from museum holds. They are clean and flawless as a square root of 4 and as lifeless and emotionless as a square root of 4. There is very very little amount of shows that are ART!

What I can't get is why Bill even worrying about this amateur creation. Why he is telling all the story of new software they are working on in the topic that has nothing to do with Pang. Same happened when I posted Illustrate/Laserboy tutorial. Plus few other topics. Very very strange. From my side it looks like Bill actualy worries about a small amateur side project.