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Thread: A different way to make shows: Improvements in 3D rendering

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    I have shown our system at several PL gatherings, and it could be that my posting here will be a reminder to them, and that they will now pipe-up about it...
    The pic below was from FLEM1.5. It was taken by Aseras while Bill was giving a demo of the 3D Studio Max plugin.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shadows.jpg  


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    I'm surprised none of the people who went to SELEM and saw your demo and posted in this thread corrected this.
    Hi Doc;

    Sorry - I'm really late getting into this thread. Been super busy lately.

    It was *not* at SELEM that Bill Demo'd the 3D Studio Max Plug-in. It was first demo'd at FLEM 1.5 in October of 2007, and again briefly at FLEM MARK II in January of 2008. (For those of you in attendance back in 2007, it was also the one where we played lots of vector arcade games on DZ's laser projector!)

    There weren't a lot of people in attendance at that event back in 2007, so that may be why there is such a limited response. Fred Blockland (aka Astroguy) was the one that first asked to see the plug-in in action. Bill fired up his laptop and gave us a small demo on the spot. However, at the time DZ was working on the wiring inside allthatwhichis' projector, and Marconi and Maxine (K-Car) were just getting ready to leave. I think the only ones that were really paying close attention were Fred, Paul (Clandestiny), and
    myself.

    Having said that, I can vouch for Bill's claim that the software supports object shading - including partial object shading. The color blends are similar to what you've posted above.
    I doubt posting an ild, raw points, would allow reverse engineering of your rendering technique, but it would help to show, to those that don't have your soft and haven't been able to attend a SELEM, what your max converter can do.
    A frame file proves nothing. What's to prevent someone from exporting a frame without shading and then editing the frame afterwards. The only way to *prove* that the software can do it is to come to a Laser Enthustiast's Meeting and see it live.
    Again, the lack of such examples are one of the things that led to the original conclusion.
    That's pretty arrogant of you, Doc... You're basically concluding that Bill is lying about the capabilities of his software. Does that sound reasonable?

    Seriously, you have done some amazing things. But understand that Pangolin has the money to hire *lots* of very bright programmers (possibly even brighter than you), and they've been doing this for years. Naturally, they're going to have a huge advantage over you.

    I'm not saying that you should stop what you are doing. I think there are lots of people that stand to benefit from your efforts, and that is a laudable goal. But this arrogance against Pangolin is counter-productive. Trust me - I used to feel the same way. Before you get even more defensive, make a commitment to SEE the software in operation.

    And remember: Bill is not your enemy. He can be a *very* valuable resource. You two guys speak the same language. Trust me - meet him in person and you'll thank me afterwards.
    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    It IS impressive how many things they have worked on, but that doesn't mean us little guys with little pockets can't have fun as well. That's the point of this, the audio DAC, laserboy, spaghetti, LFI Player, Zoof's games, etc to me! Having fun while lowering barriers to entry.
    I completely agree. I fully support the hobbyist movement, and though I am running Pangolin now, don't forget that I started out just like a lot of the newbies with a cheap pointer and a few spinning mirrors. I also went through 4 different controllers before settling on the QM-2000. If I sound like a televangelist for Pangolin, it's only because I'm trying to save people the lost money (and lost time) trying to make an inferior controller do something it can't.

    But if a sound-card DAC and free laser show software is all a new guy can afford, that's a hard fact that won't change. And I think it's great that you are working with others to keep that option viable for people. Truthfully, I wanted to help, especially with Laserboy. But I can't get over James' irrational streak, so I've abandoned Laserboy for now.

    I am trying to give Carmangary a hand with Spaghetti, but I don't have a lot of free time right now, and he's getting good feedback from a few others right now, so I don't feel quite so guilty about not having the time to devote to the project.

    Also, I should point out that Bill is just as supportive of the hobbyist cause as I am. (Maybe even more so.) My time is valuable, yet I devote a large portion of it towards helping the community here. (As you do, too, Doc.) But Bill's time is arguably a lot more valuable than mine is, and yet he devotes an equally large portion of his free time towards supporting both this forum and the Laser Enthusiast's Meetings. So he's not against the "little guys" having fun with lasers. On the contrary, he wants more people to be having fun with lasers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    As a point, I will say that in fact, Yadda has done some interesting things in the past which we have not yet explored.
    Yeah, you never hear about Yadda anymore. He had a kid, and now it's like he's fallen off the face of the earth! Too bad, because he did have a pretty cool controller design. But the chips were near obsolescence when he built the first one. My guess is that he'd choose a different one if he started over today. (Maybe that's what he's doing?)
    It has nothing to do with the "in-crowd" as, apparently, James thinks...
    I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Bill Benner comes to our Laser Enthusiast's Meetings and tunes *everyone's* scanners, not just the guys that are running Pangolin. He helps *anyone* that asks. He doesn't care if you're running Full-Auto, or the Alphalite, or Mamba Black. (We've had all three of those running at more than one LEM.)

    There is no "in crowd" with Bill. Most of the hobbyists are never going to go commercial anyway, so you might say that from a business standpoint Bill is wasting his valuable time. But he really likes to meet the hobbyists and see what we're up to. If James had been even remotely willing to be reasonable, I'm sure he would have benefited enormously from further conversations with Bill.
    @Dr. Lava, since Buffo has not yet posted in this forum, I assume it is simply because he is too busy or something like that. I have shown our system at several PL gatherings, and it could be that my posting here will be a reminder to them, and that they will now pipe-up about it...
    Indeed. My Mother is staying with us, as she recently had foot surgery and is essentially immobile at this point. Also, I've been incredibly busy at work - both the typical end-of-the-year rush bullshit, but also we've had a string of bad luck with midnight failures and people calling in sick at the last minute. Ugh.

    I honestly try to read each and every post on this forum, but the last couple of weeks has been hard, and my posting frequency has diminished. Also, I'm getting lots of PM's re: the upcoming FLEM on November 8th. There are only so many hours in the day, and when something has to give, it's usually my time on PL. So yeah, I saw this thread initially, but glossed over it and didn't bother to check in again until now.

    Adam

  3. #33
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    Pangolin hires people to sit around all day and think of this stuff. If they DIDN'T already do it I would be embarassed for them. Good job for DrLava for doing it on his own without pay and sharing it with us. That's what user groups are all about and this type of thing makes PhotonLexicon worth visiting on a daily basis.

  4. #34
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    Buffo, I think we're on the same page generally except just wanted to clarify this:

    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    Again, the lack of such examples are one of the things that led to the original conclusion.
    That's pretty arrogant of you, Doc... You're basically concluding that Bill is lying about the capabilities of his software. Does that sound reasonable?
    That statement was to show that the lack of example frames is one of the things that initiated the confusion in the first place, not to insinuate that he won't post frames because it's a lie. There's no way he would outright lie on a public forum where members can prove/disprove these things.
    Still, I feel some frustration that a member of the ILDA board is reticent to promote show and frame sharing in that format, even if the content is not under restricted copyright.

    Let me explain what I mean by that.. The least expensive LD2000 Intro software lacks ILDA export. The group most likely to share frames for free are beginners, also the most likely to have the Intro version. The included shows and other copyrighted shows could have a no export feature, so the shows made on the Intro version could be exported but not the others. Also, FB3. But this is off topic, just wanted to explain a source of my frustration above.
    Last edited by drlava; 10-17-2008 at 15:12.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    That statement was to show that the lack of example frames is one of the things that initiated the confusion in the first place, not to insinuate that he won't post frames because it's a lie.
    Hi Doc;

    OK - I might have reacted a little strongly to that. If I misread your intentions, I apologize. It just sounded like you weren't taking Bill at his word.
    Still, I feel some frustration that a member of the ILDA board is reticent to promote show and frame sharing in that format, even if the content is not under restricted copyright.
    Well, allowing people to save all .LDS files as ILDA would allow wholesale piracy of the included frames that come with Pangolin. That is a risk even with the Basic and Pro versions as well, but presumably someone willing to spend that sort of money would have the intergrety to avoid the copyright infringement.

    Truthfully though, the times have changed, and the risk is not as great now as it once was. (Largely because the hobbyist community is now producing lots of frames to share.) And indeed, these days Bill will sell you the "save as ILDA" option as an ala-carte upgrade, even if all you have is an Intro board.
    The included shows and other copyrighted shows could have a no export feature, so the shows made on the Intro version could be exported but not the others. Also, FB3. But this is off topic, just wanted to explain a source of my frustration above.
    That would require a re-write of the .LDS file format to permit the use of the files while preventing them from being exported. Since we're talking about an encrypted file format, you need to be *very* carefull. One wrong change, and the entire protection scheme could be compromised. And that encryption is the main thing driving people like Mike Dunn to continue creating incredible shows for Pangolin. Without it, after the first person bought the show, it could be pirated and shared with everyone.

    Remember - Bill is sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place here. While he genuinely enjoys working with the hobbyist community, it's the professional laserists that are buying the bulk of his hardware and software. Those clients pay the bills. And he needs to continue to provide an environment where they can produce their own content and protect it.

    I agree that this created a barrier for the hobbyist community, however, and I can see your frustration. (I expect that on some scale, Bill recognizes this same frustration.) It's hard for a hobbyist running Pangolin (like I am) to create frames that another hobbyist can use - unless the other hobbyist is also using Pangolin. That's one of the reasons why I am hanging on to my older software, such as Anarchy, Alphalite, and Mamba Black.

    I suppose if Bill had unlimited resources, he could make this change. However, it would be a good bit of work. My guess is that he has other tasks (such as the new "Beyond" software) that he has deemed more important.
    Pangolin hires people to sit around all day and think of this stuff. If they DIDN'T already do it I would be embarassed for them. Good job for DrLava for doing it on his own without pay and sharing it with us. That's what user groups are all about and this type of thing makes PhotonLexicon worth visiting on a daily basis.
    Gary, I completely agree. I am continually amazed that so-called "average" people here have been able to create such incredibly complex products that rival commercial ones costing tens or hundreds of times more.

    And I agree that it's great when people share their creations. While it's not easy for a company to do that (They'd soon be out of business if they gave their products away!), it really helps the community when individuals are willing to donate their time and expertise to the cause. (It also keeps the industry on their collective toes... As the hobbyist community closes in on the best that the industry has to offer, the industry needs to improve to maintain their advantage - otherwise why pay the price premium, right?)

    Adam
    Last edited by buffo; 10-17-2008 at 16:41.

  6. #36
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    Just a few points here...

    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    Still, I feel some frustration that a member of the ILDA board is reticent to promote show and frame sharing in that format, even if the content is not under restricted copyright.
    If you are referring to me, I am not a member of the ILDA board. I was, but that was several years ago.

    Let me make perfectly clear that I don't "un-promote" show and frame sharing in the ILDA format. Everyone else is free to do what they want, and I don't go around poo-pooing what others do. As for Pangolin, we just don't generally share our content in ILDA format, mostly because of copyright issues. The vast majority of the content we supply comes to us through deals we make with content providers. As part of the agreement we make with them, we need to restrict the delivery only to licensed Pangolin users, and thus, we can acurately calculate an associated royalty to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    Let me explain what I mean by that.. The least expensive LD2000 Intro software lacks ILDA export.
    I don't know where this nonsense is coming from!! All versions of our system, including the LD2000 Intro version, absolutely can export to ILDA format including formats 0, 1, 4 and 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    The included shows and other copyrighted shows could have a no export feature, so the shows made on the Intro version could be exported but not the others.
    It already works that way... Not only for INTRO users, but for ALL users!

    From what Buffo wrote above, I can see that there must be a little confusion here. Nevertheless, ANY content made by users can be freely exported by anyone and to anyone (in our file format or in ILDA format). But the content we supply can not be exported to ILDA format.

    As a testament to this -- as I have already written, the vast majority of shows found on spectrabeam.de were created by Pangolin users, and then exported to ILDA format for playback on MAMBA and Phoenix. This would not be possible if we didn't allow ILDA export.


    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    just wanted to explain a source of my frustration above.
    Seems like the goal posts are moving a bit, but in any event it could be that your frustration is unfounded, if you believe people with LD2000 Intro can not export to ILDA.

    Pangolin was the very first company in the entire world to support the original (Format 0/1) ILDA format, and was also the very first company in the entire world to support what was known as "ILDA 24" and is now known as Format 4 and 5. Yes we absolutely support ILDA and its formats. We are also the biggest contributor to ILDA, both monetarily and time-wise.

    I always appreciate when people phrase things like "as far as I know" or when they phrase things in terms of a question, like "does LD2000 support ILDA export?". What I despise is when people make blatant and untrue statements about things they know little or nothing about.

    As I wrote in the ILDA forums, questions are always welcome, but untrue statements are not!

    Bill
    Last edited by Pangolin; 10-17-2008 at 16:32.

  7. #37
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    Sorry, I was going by this on your website:

    http://www.pangolin.com/versions.html

    Output show (or parts of show) as a sequence of ILDA frames: Yes Yes No (No being for Intro)

    Really not trying to be misleading here :O I did try to fact-check

    So what's up
    Last edited by drlava; 10-17-2008 at 16:39.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    Really not trying to be misleading here :O I did try to fact-check
    Thanks for the attempt at clarification but your original post above says LD2000 Intro "lacks ILDA export".

    The page you referred to makes a distinction betwee "export file formats for laser" and "output show as a series of frames". LD2000 Intro can absolutely export to the ILDA format, and that page says so.

    But I'll tell you what. In the upcoming release of LD2000 version 5.0, I will remove that distinction which will let me remove the "output show as a series of frames" column from our comparison page. I just love to simplify things . LD2000 Intro users can thank Dr. Lava for the additional feature .

    By the way, I can see that you must be REALLY interested in our products to do so much research .

    Bill
    Last edited by Pangolin; 10-17-2008 at 16:53.

  9. #39
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    Red face ooops!

    Hmmm...

    Evidently I had a misconception about LD-2000's restrictions. (Or lack thereof.) It appears that the files that come with Pangolin can't be saved as ILDA, but new frames you create can. Admittedly, I haven't really tried to export anything in ILDA, because everything I've done I've been using on the LD-2000 system anyway...

    As for exporting an entire show as ILDA, I was pretty sure that was a Basic and Pro only feature. But even so, I wonder if that feature only works with files you create... (After all, it wouldn't be fair if I could export as ILDA all the custom frames in one of Mike Dunn's Pink Floyd shows...)

    Adam

  10. #40
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    Thumbs up

    Bill, what can I say but 'cool'! It is unique for a company like yours to listen to a non-customer individual, especially when the individual comes across as having a large colon-embedded stick.

    You are right, I am interested your products as well as others, and also in the success and quality of the ildaswap site, and in growing the base of laser-interested people in general, which should help us all <-:

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