ILDA Format

[carmangary]

The ILDA file format wasn't intended to be used for artists to share works in progress. It was intended to be used to transfer completed works. I don't think it should be though of as a "project file". Doing so will only end up in adding a lot of extra data to it that is not necessary to render a picture.

[James Lehman]

No it won't.

It just holds the correct data in it's most useful form in whatever state you leave it. When you or someone else opens it, it's all there to pick up and continue working on it until it is finished.

If the ILDA format is just a means of transferring data from one proprietary system to another, then that implies that there can be no non-proprietary system that can exists without a proprietary format of its own.

That kills LaserBoy. And makes me sad.

James.

[keeperx]

ILDA is an OPEN standard.. its sapose to be NON-proprietary.

There is always the solution of creating a new open format that is (as carmangary mentioned) an ilda project file.

lets say .ild is a like a BMP (ready to be displayed) and the "project file" is like a PSD in photoshop.. that would be a pretty standard way of doing things.

lets say that format 3 is the begining of this solution and that it could even be expanded on to allow for more options and flexability.

[carmangary]

No it won't.

It just holds the correct data in it's most useful form in whatever state you leave it. When you or someone else opens it, it's all there to pick up and continue working on it until it is finished.

If the ILDA format is just a means of transferring data from one proprietary system to another, then that implies that there can be no non-proprietary system that can exists without a proprietary format of its own.

That kills LaserBoy. And makes me sad.

James.

I suppose you could do that but it's kind of like publishing MS Word document with all the changes still visible. Most people would prefer a cleaned up PDF if all they want to do is look at it.

Who says there needs to be a non-proprietary format for creating laser images? LaserBoy is proprietary with it's custom WAV format. And your method of using palettes is certainly unique so pushing it into the standard would be to benefit you, not the industry. So, you're kind of just pushing your properitaryness on everyone in my opinion.

I've been around standards a long time. I was part of developing the old v34 modem standards and am currently part of defining semi automation standards. Best way to change them is to get on a committee and/or create a prototype and prove its usefulness. That's the way it works.

[James Lehman]

Your statement "...like publishing MS Word document with all the changes still visible..." makes no sense.

LaserBoy reads and writes ILDA formats 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5. All of these formats (including the original format 3) were designed and proposed by ILDA; not me.

It's a very simple issue of storing the same basic information in slightly different orders. It has nothing to do with edits or partial works.

My use of wave might be unusual, but it is supposed to be within the legal definition of a wave. It needs to be recognized as a wave by other programs that know nothing about lasers or LaserBoy.

My insistence on getting the open ILDA file format standard right is not for my own benefit. It's for everyone who works with laser art.

Come on, Gary! You used to post pictures of your work with Spaghetti with LaserBoy art showing in your GUI! You can't honestly say that you got nothing good out of what I have already put out there.

The real question is whether ILDA is going to support the development of open systems or are they going to discourage such activities.

What possible advantage could come, for ILDA or anyone else, from crippling and limiting the use of a simple arrangement of numbers?

Just saying that the ILDA file format was never intended to do XYZ... has nothing to do with the fact that it works very well at doing XYZ! (literally!)

James.

[carmangary]

I'm not talking strictly ILDA. I am refering to what you and keeperx keep talking about and that is the use of color palettes in ILDA files to allow different people to work on them using the same colors. Yes, I know about format 2 & 3 allowing that to a certain extent. You are still free to use format 2 for this all you want. You could even use format 3 if you don't care that no one will be able to use your files except for LaserBoy. That is exactly what you are doing now. You have your own version of format 3. You can say that you matched ILDA at some point but the fact is that you only matched a proposed standard and didn't follow through with making sure you changed as it evolved.

But anyway, I am rambling. The point is that format 3 is dead so you don't have palettes of more than 256 colors. Period. I don't care if you propose a new format or attempt to revive format 3 but I wouldn't support what you are currently suggesting because I think there are much better ways of handling the situation. But like I said, if you really want to change it then stop talking about it and join ILDA, propose your ideas, show a reason that what you are proposing is good, and get it done. Talking about this over and over and over on PL is not going to do anything.

[Pangolin]

You have your own version of format 3. You can say that you matched ILDA at some point but the fact is that you only matched a proposed standard and didn't follow through with making sure you changed as it evolved.

Actually not even this is true. As I looked back on the discussions of Format 3 (most of which happened during Q3 of 2002), it went from having a uniform header to having the non-uniform header very quickly. In fact, this happened so quickly that the uniform header version never even made it to point of being a "proposed standard". The uniform header might have been that way only during one or two out of maybe 20 emails, before the November 2002 TechCom meeting. It was never even documented in the "uniform header" way. All proposed ILDA format 3 versions had the non-uniform header. This surprised even me, but it is true. (Since James learned about Format 3 during telephone conversations with Matt, my guess is that Matt didn't understand this when he was discussing it with James, or didn't correctly communicate the details to James.)

In any event, I am confused over something. I am confused over how it is that Format 3 helps anything with "palettes", regardless of the format of the header? You can form a "Format 3" packet by taking a "Format 4" packet and just striping the XYZ coordinates, leaving nothing but the color. So this would give you an ordered RGB values, the order being the point-order. "Palettes" and "Color indexes" have nothing to do with Format 3, and so I don't see how that would help.

Also, James, I am curious if LaserBoy allows for palettes with more than 256 colors?

In any event, all of this might just come down to what your favorite laser show creation tool can or can not do. Pangolin got away from palettes for the purpose of storing pictures, that's a fact. But LD2000 does have a little tool where people can create color-spreads and, what a lot of people might call "palettes" themselves. These can be saved and loaded and then shared with others. I am not sure what the format is (just can't remember) but it might be as simple as a text file with the colors.

LD2000 has a "software metrics" feature, whereby we can have people send us a file that tells us how popular the various features are. With nearly 10,000 clients I would be willing to bet the software metrics would show us that most people don't even know that the feature is there, much less make use of it...

Nevertheless, if we want to talk about being able to make "palettes" in the classic sense of the word, and then share those palettes with others, then a simple text file with RGB values would certainly do the trick. Nobody is going to complain that a text file isn't open enough... Sure the text file wouldn't be part of the ILDA file, but there is an easy solution, and lots of programs (including LD2000) make use of the solution. You just create a file that has the same "base name", but a different extension. So for example, lets take my fully-shaded, fully-rendered picture as an example. It might be called "Full.ILD" and also include a "FULL.PAL" file. The "FULL.PAL" file would be a simple text file with RGB, that could be loaded into any spreadsheet or notepad type program.

Bill

[James Lehman]

OK! Again, I'd like to thank everyone for hanging in there on this thread. And I would encourage anyone else to pop in with a relevant comment!

We've had a good round of technical discussion and I think we have revealed a lot of information to many other readers who didn't know all that much about the ILDA format.

It seems like there are clearly two different fronts of this discussion; the technical and the political.

Maybe we should try to stay with the technical until we all understand it in much the same way. That way the political stuff will sort itself out better.

One thing I would ask about the political side of this discussion is...

Please don't keep telling me I am not a member of ILDA! I'm not rich. I don't travel well. I charge nothing for LaserBoy. If my observations and contributions to the art of laser projection is not worth anything until I give ILDA my money, then I don't know what to think.

If anyone out there thinks I have an evil plan to ruin everything. I do not.

My evil plan is to develop a system that artists can use to make laser art. It is open source, in hopes that other programmers will want to get into it and make it better.

LaserBoy is not easy to use and really not easy to get into code-wise. If you really want to take the concept all the way, building the sound card DAC isn't a no-brainer either. And by all of that, I mean, it is not a commercial product.

The reason I have such a passionate appreciation for format 3 (with a uniform section header) is because it completes the set of 0, 1, 2 & 3!

Seriously! It DOES 24 bit color every bit as well as 4 & 5. But it maintains the use of all of the other sections. It maintains the relevance and structure of formats 0 & 1 and exploits the tiny differences between 2 & 3 for major benefit! It is a beautiful thing!

BTW LaserBoy reads and writes ASCII palettes.

James.

[keeperx]

well if we are keeping it technical, then im out..

i have a question for Bill, and im only asking because i actually don't know.

What are the benefits of the format 4/5 color storage methods over the format 3 method?

I mean actual benefits. and again im not being a smart ass, i just really do not know enough about it.

is it:
faster (whatever that means)
smaller
easier to read/write
stuff like that...

[James Lehman]

well if we are keeping it technical, then im out..

So far the questions you've asked and the points you have made mostly fall into the technical side.

You're doing fine.

James.