ILDA Accreditation

**mophead** · 01-10-2009, 20:30

I'll have to say that my first post in this thread was pretty much a knee-jerk reaction to something i might have not understood. I open my mouth when i shouldn't, sometimes.

After re-reading the entire thread along with looking at the Proposed form; the way I understand it might not be that bad.

Look at it from my viewpoint, a brand new person in the scene:

1. You have (or build) your own stuff. Not legal, no variance, no public showings, having a good time in ones basement either with or without off-the-shelf hardware (Pango or a hacked soundcard)- still being safe all the while. Does it really matter if you get accredited? Most likely not.

2. You have (or build) your own stuff. Would *like* to get legal, have the proper paperwork (eventhough it's a pain in the ass), *might* like to give a public show or two (if everything is legal)- even if it's for low or no pay-fundraisers for the kids school come to mind-, have acceptable hardware for public shows and of course being safe all the while. Does it really matter if you get accredited? Maybe

3. Buying or building the stuff, wanting to do a few shows "to help offset the cost of the hobby". I have a feeling there are quite a few people that want to get paid to play and are not legal AND at the same time bitching about accreditation. Brings too much attention right back home, IMO.

4. The big players that of course are legal and are going to get ILDA accredited regardless.

Safety is the utmost importance. It's, IMO, what needs to be accredited.

Courses, classes, tests, ya know, whatever it takes to educate both the operators and the general public.

Just my .000025

**gottaluvlasers** · 01-10-2009, 20:38

james if that happened the way you said it happend (which of course i believe you. youre a stand up guy!

) then, YES. you have a legitimate gripe.

HOWEVER (yes, there is a "HOWEVER")

what does that have to do with this accreditation process?? that was 2004. and that had NOTHING, zero, zilch to do with what we are currently trying to debate now.

in 2004 i also wanted to buy a 3 phase argon laser and everyone laughed at me saying i was stupid.

i now own a 3W melles laser. so, shit happens at certain points in history to make the PRESENT happen a certain way.

i, in all honesty, have heard NOTHING but GOOD things about laserboy. honestly. i think the only somewhat negative thing i ever heard/saw was the lack of a mouse support.

i have heard more complaints about pangolin than i have about laserboy. so, i would feel DAMN proud of what you have come up with. ESPECIALLY for giving it away freely.

if pangolin and/or ILDA dont want any part of it, fine. that is there choice. maybe in their eyes (and i AM NOT agreeing, just offering a devils advocate point of view...) they have bigger fish to fry.

i personally wish they would somehow adapt what you did with pangolin and have ILDA look at what you have come up with in your basement! after all, thats how pangolin started.

the fact of the matter is, your gripes may have legitimacey to them and may be warranted. i dont see how it pertains to becoming accreditted.

there is no accreditation based on software development. or accreditation based on how many people use a software/hardware platform.

be proud of your accomplishment! you have opened doors FOR A LOT of laserists!!

-Marc

**James Lehman** · 01-10-2009, 21:33

One word.

Credibility.

James.

**mixedgas** · 01-11-2009, 00:12

OK, so pro and amateur is out. lets try this again:

call it the:

Small Laser / Indoor User Safety Certificate

0-500 mW take simple test and 4 math problems. no practicum, maybe set in on 4 hour class. Very Basic, covers things leading to help getting variance/HSE etc permits.Stuff you want to know anyways. When is my laser a hazard, and what can I do about it? Covers club and Dj users who average less then 500 mW, most hobbyists, and the pointer guys. Mentions little things like safety cables for bounce mirrors and what should be in a preshow checklist. How much goggle OD do I need, whats a master shutter, laser classifications, emission indicators, Is DMX safe for pyro etc. Basic stuff that gets asked again and again here at PL. Groundwork for getting hired either as self employed weekend warrier, or a start for the big laser company. You'll be happy after you take this test and a lot more comfortable if CDRH/HSE/DIN/WHATEVER comes for a visit. Be your own LSO and not sweat it.
comes with a bunch of PDF study guides, maybe a youtube vid or two.

Large Laser / Outdoor User Safety Certificate

500 mW and UP, Outdoors, Q switched, Pulsed, Or Audience Scanning where allowed. Lasers in Airspace. Big Iron. Lasers that need to be on forklifts, Some safety Classroom time required More math, more practical experience in show setup required. Prep for say NYS CLASS B and on the path to being a touring Show-OP or Outdoor Show Aircraft Spotter. You can skip straight to this if you wish, ie take both tests at once. More involved things like 3 Phase hookup and cable, ANSI z.136, OSHA, and a splitting headache after you take the test.

Reason for the split : At not much above 500 mw, scattered radiation is becoming a hazard and you need more training and math. That is why the IIIB /IV split occurs in the rules. IE Your not doing outdoor shows with 500 mW. Also, from a educational standpoint, its best to progress in stages. After all who wants to set for one huge exam at once?, So a split to two levels makes it easier for those who are not full time laserists. More involved things like 3 Phase hookup and cable .

Many of you hate math, I hate math, by splitting the "tickets" I can reduce the math to tolerable levels.

That should reduce the politics.

Steve

**Anthony** · 01-11-2009, 02:43

Originally Posted by James Lehman

Back in 2004, I was in phone contact with Matt P. while he was the chair of the ILDA Standards and Technical Specifications Committee. He told me flat out that he was definitely NOT interested in seeing any kind of demonstration of LaserBoy or its ability to handle 24-bit color information, because as long as he never saw it, he could pretend that it didn't exist. I'm not making that up. That's what he told me when I pressed him. He lives about 25 minutes away from me.

Since he couldn't deal with me anymore, he put me into email contact with Peter J. Peter J. told me that he didn't have time to explain simple data structure and file formats to me and he didn't have to because I'm not an ILDA member.

Since then I've been kicked around in private and public by several people on several different forums.

That's not a conspiracy. That's the truth.

I think it's WAY past time that I get a public apology from those people and a total retraction of everything negative they've ever said about me.

Fix the f&%king file format.

James.

Here you go again.

i really whas thinking you were doing better and moved on to better things..
Sorry james you really are pathetic when you behave like this...

come on.... you should be better than this
Move on.. don't cry/complain..... if the osftware is as good as you preach it is... people can't get around it in the future.
The problems you encounter are mainly because of your internetpersonality and the way you act.

**buffo** · 01-11-2009, 05:11

Originally Posted by carmangary

Getting an award doesn't make you better than someone who never bothers to try for an award.

I agree with this point. Several people have protested the *absolute* requirement to have won an award. I don't have a problem awarding "bonus points" if someone gets an award, but it should not be a primary qualification. I also don't agree with the "5 letters of recommendation" requirement.

Originally Posted by carmangary

Some money has to be paid in order to keep it going. It isn't govt funded as far as I know.

Exactly. The higher cost of this accreditation program (higher, that is, compared to membership dues) will give ILDA extra cash to pursue other programs. Remember that Patrick is talking about rolling out an individual certification program that *will* have more emphasis on training. Not sure exactly what form that will take (there's been talk of both on-line training and also face-to-face seminars), but they are still kicking things around.

I don't think Pangolin is in bed with ILDA. I think that they just stay involved. It's always the ones that stay involved that get their way.

I agree that Pangolin is *not* in bed with ILDA. However, I seriously doubt that Pangolin has anything to do with this accreditation program. First, they are not a laser show production company, so they would have little hope of qualifying. Second, I haven't heard Bill saying a whole lot about the initiative on the ILDA list server. And finally, given Pangolin's current reputation I hardly think they *need* any more accreditation...

The people that *are* pushing for this are the major laser show production companies. They are the ones that stand to gain the most from it. (Check the posts on the list server... LaserNet is certainly involved!) From what I've heard from the few ILDA board members I've contacted, the general thinking is that the big boys have been the one's supporting ILDA the most over the years, and they want a little return on their investment. And yes, most of these companies are located in the US, which is why the international community is not nearly as enamored with the program as companies like LaserNet are.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the program so long as a few changes are made to make it fair for all companies, and not just the ones that already qualify by default. After all, it's unlikely that any of the hobbyists here are going to pony up $600 just so they can be "acredited". Marc might be interested in doing so, and I'm sure there are a few others here that might, but really this is aimed at the folks doing shows full-time year-round.

If everyone of us on PL joined ILDA I am sure we could make a difference. But, who really cares enough? I don't.

We can influence this accreditation program without being members. Patrick made it clear that he was open to feedback from both ILDA members and non-members alike.

As for joining ILDA and making a difference in other programs (such as safety, public education, or even revising some of the draconian laws we face here in the US), I think that is a laudable goal, and is one reason I paid my dues. I think there are enough hobbyists here to make a difference in ILDA, if we all bothered to care enough to make a change.

Patrick once told me that things progress in ILDA at the speed of volunteers. That's a telling statement. If we as a group were to get more involved with ILDA, there is much good that could come out of it. (I've actually asked him for ideas on how hobbyists could become more involved.)

Then again, it's a lot easier to just sit here and complain about it while sitting in our comfy chairs in front of our computers, isn't it?

Adam

**Stuka** · 01-11-2009, 08:36

Originally Posted by mixedgas

OK, so pro and amateur is out. lets try this again:

call it the:

Small Laser / Indoor User Safety Certificate

0-500 mW take simple test and 4 math problems. no practicum, maybe set in on 4 hour class. Very Basic, covers things leading to help getting variance/HSE etc permits.Stuff you want to know anyways. When is my laser a hazard, and what can I do about it? Covers club and Dj users who average less then 500 mW, most hobbyists, and the pointer guys. Mentions little things like safety cables for bounce mirrors and what should be in a preshow checklist. How much goggle OD do I need, whats a master shutter, laser classifications, emission indicators, Is DMX safe for pyro etc. Basic stuff that gets asked again and again here at PL. Groundwork for getting hired either as self employed weekend warrier, or a start for the big laser company. You'll be happy after you take this test and a lot more comfortable if CDRH/HSE/DIN/WHATEVER comes for a visit. Be your own LSO and not sweat it.
comes with a bunch of PDF study guides, maybe a youtube vid or two.

Large Laser / Outdoor User Safety Certificate

500 mW and UP, Outdoors, Q switched, Pulsed, Or Audience Scanning where allowed. Lasers in Airspace. Big Iron. Lasers that need to be on forklifts, Some safety Classroom time required More math, more practical experience in show setup required. Prep for say NYS CLASS B and on the path to being a touring Show-OP or Outdoor Show Aircraft Spotter. You can skip straight to this if you wish, ie take both tests at once. More involved things like 3 Phase hookup and cable, ANSI z.136, OSHA, and a splitting headache after you take the test.

Reason for the split : At not much above 500 mw, scattered radiation is becoming a hazard and you need more training and math. That is why the IIIB /IV split occurs in the rules. IE Your not doing outdoor shows with 500 mW. Also, from a educational standpoint, its best to progress in stages. After all who wants to set for one huge exam at once?, So a split to two levels makes it easier for those who are not full time laserists. More involved things like 3 Phase hookup and cable .

Many of you hate math, I hate math, by splitting the "tickets" I can reduce the math to tolerable levels.

That should reduce the politics.

Steve

GREAT ideas!

I could see where the Safety Certificate program could be used in conjunction with the ILDA accreditation program, and would be a great building-block process for those of us who hope to progress towards someday performing safe, legal, shows, but perhaps aren't quite there yet!

I see your ideas as complementing - not replacing - the ILDA accreditation. There would probably be some overlap / repetition in ideas and requirements between the programs, but it seems that is generally the case anytime "professional" certifications are involved, whether it be in the civilan sector, government, or military.

So, when can we start signing up for the "Small Laser / Indoor User Safety Certificate" training?

**dsli_jon** · 01-11-2009, 09:37

Hey Patrick -

Thanks for making the time to post, here...