ILDA Accreditation

[Pitts]

Is it not desirable for ILDA to set up a safety certification process ??.

Hopefully (in my opinion) in at least a two tier setup. One being a basic, practical, relatively easily achieved and a more advanced one for the more serious operator.

One thing that does concern me is why has this not been achieved so far.
LIA have it I think through Rockwell ??
If I understand correctly what I was shown on my visit to the USA earlier last year the hard work has already been done on this.

ILDA now wants to create an accredited show pro' system but lacks even the most basic entry level safety certification process that would help all / any aspiring show performers (pro and Am') and keen enthusiasts ensuring their own and family safety.

It would also give a good basis for the hired in help.

This is a good entry point in my view for ALL as this could be shown to potential clients from day one (look, I have an ILDA laser certification for your safety type of thing !!).
This is achievable in the short term. Some "accredited" as yet to be finalised, long winded excercise that will benefit the few and further that few others may ever be able to comply with (as presented thus far) is of concern to me. (lifting the bar as has been talked about is fine but hell lifting it so high only a few can get there ???)

ILDA and senior members are always on about safety and fair enough but the very organisitaion that is our Laser Display association has no viable dedicated safetysystem for us. This desipte having a very talented safety committee (yes I am a member of both ILDA and LIA at this time but will probably drop LIA as its the wrong "home: for me. I will be staying with ILDA as change comes from within not by throwing toys out of the cot.
And yes I have volunteered to assist but have had no reply yet)

Lets get the basics right before we proceed to complex systems that seem to put off more than it encourages.(judging by the reactions here and on ILDA web)

I guess in the end it will be simple if there is enough problems with lasers and operators many governments may kindly provide some draconian certification for us with a "no choice" clause. ( it happened here with Pyro' and explosives so I guess its reasonable to assume it may happen with lasers)

Hence my question better ILDA do it with our input or the governments do it without our input !!

Just some food for thought.

Cheers

Ray
NZ

[James Lehman]

I still think having a large single source of information on the web and printed information that points to it available for free at every laser show is a good idea.

It kinda' makes sense that a laserist wouldn't give out information about safety and in the same show break the rules.

It also makes a clear statement that the laserist did not make up the rules alone. They were agreed upon by "the experts".

James.

[Lasermad]

As a small laser company i saw it as a positive , once the accreditation process is in place ... the hurdles are there , and VISABLE for all to see and be to be jumped .

If the accreditation process is implemented , simply join the ILDA and work towards jumping those hurdles and once acheived your maybe small company has the opportunity to flourish and you can sit amongst the GOLD standard of laser companies and show potential client s that ...if you dont mind showing them your comptetitors ! If acheived in thoery you can compete and sit amongst the Big Boys equally :-) and show even though you may be smaller and err cheaper you have acheived the GOLD STANDARD in safety amongst other things . I guess a clients major concern and consideration in these litegous days is safety ..if you can point out that your just as safe as "HUGE PLC LASER COMPANY" then just maybe it would allow you through the door.

PAUL

[buffo]

Physical access to laser technology. Like any self interest group will do.
I have nothing agains sefety tests and such...but did you noticed that to be certified you have to be ILDA member!

What did you expect? Of course you have to be a member. Why would they bother certifying you as an ILDA-accredited professional company if you weren't an ILDA member in the first place? (For that matter, why would you even apply for accreditation if you weren't already a memeber?)

This is not going to restrict access to technology for anyone. ILDA is not a legislative body - they don't control the flow of lasers into the country. That's utter paranoia you're talking about.

This program is aimed squarely at the large laser show production companies. You know, the one's that have been supporting ILDA for the last decade. The one's that paid for the $10,000 press release after the Aquamarine Rave incident outside Moscow last summer. The one's that would like to see some return on their investment in the organization over the years.

This is a way for those "big boys" to differnentiate themselves from the guy that does raves 4 or 5 times a year out of his garage. The guy that probably doesn't have a variance. The guy that comes in with an old converted medical laser and bids $400 for the gig. The guy that has no liability insurance. You get the picture. The big boys want their bragging rights. If they're willing to pay $600 for that - more power to them.

Relax people. This will not affect hobbyists one bit. (We don't do commercial shows.)

Now, if you *are* a small company that does shows professionally (and by that I mean you have varianced equipment, liability insurance, and some sort of formal contract you use), then you'll have to decide for yourself if the extra fees and hoops you need to jump though will be worth it for you to gain accreditation. It *might* impress future clients, but then again it might not. If you've been operating long enough, you've probably already got an established reputation and clientele, so this may not be an issue for you.

Bottom line - the hack that is doing unsafe shows without a variance *should* be the only one at any risk here. (And personally, I don't have a problem with that, since he is the one most likely to screw things up for all of us.)

The accreditation program should increase the knowledge of the clients over time, and will certainly motivate some smaller companies to pursue accreditation. This will lead to additional safety training, volunteer work in the community, and other activities that will raise the awareness of laser safety for everyone - both clients and companies alike. That can only be a good thing. Because believe me, the last thing we need is an incident like the Aquamarine rave here in this country. *That* would be something that could threaten laser ownership for all of us hobbyists.

Adam

[mixedgas]

I have nothing agains sefety tests and such...but did you noticed that to be certified you have to be ILDA member![/QUOTE]

No, multiple conversations with ILDA's executive director, in which he has stated, you can be a non-member and be certified , It is just going to cost more.

One major reason to go to a ILDA conference is you get to look at technology at the trade show before you buy it. I would have never spend 1685$ on a PCAOm way back when, if I had never seen it run. Conversly, failure to spend 1685$ on the pcaom would have been a major mistake.

The other is the social networking. Its nice to meet people in the business, and its useful.

Steve

[James Lehman]

If there was one large source of information that covered all of the relevant aspects of laser display safety, then ALL of us would have the same opportunity to study it and understand it and pass a test on it!

I bet if there was a real requirement for people to actually be in the physical presence of a large frame ion laser, there are those of us on PL on ALL continents that would accommodate.

F*#k Antarctica!

We all have the same chance at a good score.

James.

[buffo]

F*#k Antarctica!

What? You have something against penguins?

I like the idea of a central repository for laser show safety information, and Patrick has talked about some sort of ILDA on-line training program. However, I gather that he doesn't have the resources (ie volunteers) to set that up just yet. But I do think it's something that we'll see in the future.

Adam

[LaserWizard]

[quote=buffo;77687]What did you expect? Of course you have to be a member. Why would they bother certifying you as an ILDA-accredited professional company if you weren't an ILDA member in the first place? (For that matter, why would you even apply for accreditation if you weren't already a memeber?)

Sorry to jump into this so late - I have been traveling the past week, not able to keep up with the new posts.

The above quote is wrong - You do NOT have to be a member for the proposed ILDA Accreditation program. It is against anti trust laws. It will probably cost more for non-ILDA members, but it will be available.

I can state for the record that members have been requesting this type of program. We have already lost some of our larger members in the past due to them not wanting to associate with the smaller members. Try and think of the big picture here - as the industry grows, there will be a shake out between different types of companies, and a need to differentiate between them.

If you have been involved with any other organizations (like the International Festivals Association) you can note that they have paths to professional accreditation also.

Those of you who know me will know that I am about as far from being elitist as you can get. I enjoy working as a one-man company, building my own equipment, and putting on professional shows. So please cut the stuff out about this program being put forth by "elitist money grubbing big-boys". We are simply trying to hold together a good organization as our industry grows and changes with the times, by responding to member's requests.

Tim Walsh
ILDA President

[carmangary]

Sounds like it is all about sales. Big guys wanting to seperate themselves from up and comers so that customers aren't confused by a ton of different laser show companies. I can understand that. Whenever I contract out for something I often weed out the ones who aren't certified or don't have so much experience or are just mom and pop organizations.

So, if they joined ILDA in order to have the ILDA membership badge on their salesman shirts then it makes sense because little guys like me who just pay the $100 or so to be a member dilute the prestige of being in ILDA.

It is certainly about elitism, but not necessarily in an elitist way. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, though, and like you said, it is not a new idea to do something like this.

This will alienate members who feel like there is a class system. You'll start losing the smaller guys but at least you'll keep the big guys around who have bigger dues.

Anyway, that is unemotional, unbiased opinion take on it. I'm not ranting, just thinking outloud.

[buffo]

You do NOT have to be a member for the proposed ILDA Accreditation program.

You are right Tim - I apologize. I missed that part the first time I read through the messages on the ILDA list. My Bad.

I can state for the record that members have been requesting this type of program. We have already lost some of our larger members in the past due to them not wanting to associate with the smaller members.

While I don't have a horse in this race, I said basically the same thing above. This is not a new request, and it is being driven by the larger laser show production companies that want to separate themselves from smaller members. No one is really questioning that part.

What is open to debate is the impact that will have on those large companies (which I believe will be "not much, apart from bragging rights"), and how slighted the rest of the ILDA community will feel. Personally, I don't care one way or another, as I'll never have a need to pursue accreditation. Likewise, I expect that if you ever wanted to apply for it, you'd have little trouble qualifying because of your experience.

But I can see how other members might feel slighted by this initiative. And there are quite a lot of those people out there, I think. Thus the discussions here and on the list server. Perception is everything here.

Try and think of the big picture here - as the industry grows, there will be a shake out between different types of companies, and a need to differentiate between them.

The idea of a "shake-out" implies that there is a winner and a looser. I'd rather see something more inclusive than exclusive. The large companies are looking for a way to set themselves apart right now. OK, I can see why they want to do that. But I think the greater goal would be to bring the little guys up to speed. That's not necessarily the responsibility of the large laser production companies, but it *would* be a laudable goal for ILDA itself to pursue.

Those of you who know me will know that I am about as far from being elitist as you can get.

I agree completely here. You are very down to earth, and I enjoyed chatting with you on the ILDA cruise.

But tell me... Are you intersted in pursuing ILDA accreditation? And do you think such accreditation would help you with your business? (I'm not goading you, just genuinely curious...)

I'm having a hard time seeing the benefit in this program for the larger companies. The clients that hire shows from the likes of Lightwave and LaserNet already know that these companies are professional. I don't see this certification as a very powerful marketing tool at all for them. But if it's what they want, and they want to pay the fee to get the tag line to add to their business card, I don't have a problem with it either.

I *do* feel that ILDA should make the qualification process available to everyone, however, which is why I was against the absolute requirement to have won an award. I also felt the letters of recommendation requirement was unprofessional. Beyond that, I didn't have a problem with the program at all. But I do feel there are other goals that ILDA could be working towards that would benefit *more* of the members (especially ones outside the US).

Adam