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Thread: ILDA Accreditation

  1. #31
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    microsoft has the answer..

    to be a MS partner you must have anough certified employees to keep your cert. its a yearly certification review (you just file your paperwork for review)

    if you loose your certified employee your cert is suspended until you replace that employee
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodies?
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  2. #32
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    Ok, I'm the middle of putting together a quote for a client right now and dont have much time to type.

    In the US,there are lots of what the Japanese call "Radio Boy", they play with lasers to learn something and have a little fun. It sometimes leads to a technical career. As technology has diverged from simple hardware made of discrete parts to mainly software running on mega chips, radio boy has diverged from building and knowing his hardware inside out, to a buyer of a few pieces of hardware which he wires together, but knows little about. He now adds software.

    Modern Radio Boy then has a toy, but he does know much other then to take a few pieces of art freely available to him and hit play. Small software is now millions of lines of code, and radio boy cannot edit even the most basic of programs. He becomes Radio User. Radio User often is not artistic, for he uses the artwork of others, and often does not use it properly.

    Modern Radio Boy often obtains fairly dangerous items, follows a cookbook approach, makes it, but may not know the hazards. He often only has a poorly written guide written by other radio boy (ie 2600 magazine, Make magazine etc,) poorly edited by another radio boy. One Radio Boy can often inject a comment about something that has no basis in reality, but now because modern radio boy is so detached from the physics, other radio boy do not catch the error and it is taken as gospel. Ie Radio Blog. Because of search engines and the net, one Radio Boy can make false gospel that becomes perpetuated everywhere. He becomes Radio User. Ie Radio Blog , content makers, cannot resist copying and reusing unverified radio blog facts under new blog site names. Radio Boy cannot contain his enthusiasm for what he has done that makes him different, and must share his cool toy with everyone within miles, they can become radio tortured souls.

    Modern Radio Boy is no longer held accountable, unlike 60's, 70's 80's Radio Boy, who often had to earn and was expected to earn JARL or FCC license to continue to higher power. Providers would not sell high power to anyone without the license. They certainly slept better because of that.

    For example, a post here six months or a year ago by a Radio Boy that everything 87 mW and under is safe, not matter what , shown with a pic of his beams hitting many party people at his apartment with 300 mW point blank audience scanning.

    So now we have another creature, Honorable ShoGun, upps, I mean Showop.

    Honorable ShowOp is a class way above Radio Boy. He often gets paid for his work, has to know the physics and the rules, and often has a variance. He is a professional, or working to get there. He can be hired by warlord class commercial providers of laser shows.

    Showop has been in the field and done logistics, can do his own programming, often is artistic on his own, and knows how to deal with safety, professionalism, and how to entertain. He often can fix his systems, unlike Radio Boy. He is what Radio Boy was supposed to become. Showop often has apprenticed , either paid or unpaid, with professionals. Showop is not afraid to ask for help from Other Showops. He can be trusted with unlimited photonic power, and believes that laser show is a form of theatre, both a science and a art. Showop thinks before he moves, and knows there is a level beyond: "Look at my Cool Laser Dudez" Showop understands why there are CDRH rules, and understands safety and professionalism is good for industry.

    So in short, because of low cost Asian DPSS, and youtube howtos, the art has been lost. At least in the US, we have many Radio Users with toyz. They can become a danger fast, as to make money to further their addiction, they will sell things like 300 mW pointers , to a class of citizen known as total idiots, who aim them at airplanes. So if we provide a Goal for Radio User to be able to transition back to Radio Boy of old, and then a another chance
    to transistion to Showop, we can solve a few problems.

    In the US at least, we have many , many , many Radio user, and they cheapen the industry. We can groom them for better things,especially the ones that have several hundred milliwatts to several watts and are gonna eventually go out and do a "show" or two, without the permits.

    In Short, we can make Radio User and Radio Boy better educated. For tests are not always ment to be a test, they are often ment to teach. WE GIVE THEM A GOAL AND EXPECT THEM TO MEET A STANDARD.

    We give them a way to learn the laws, rules, and set artistic goals.

    I do not want everybody who buys a 300 mW pointer to be a showop when they really want to go out and use the pointer for locating stars at late night star parties, I want a intermediate level that is cheap, effective and teaches about safety. For not all radio boy are actually interested in shows, some want to burn things.

    What good is a ILDA standard approved showop, if all the past experience he has is burning things? I don't want a "intellectually cheap" showop license. I'd like a "familiar enough with laser safety" level first, because that has more uses then laser shows. I would strongly urge ILDA to create a 500 mW and down catagory, stressing safety.


    For when the DO-DO hits the fan, a industry that has taught safety and has accrediation, will be more likely to be allowed to have things that ordinary people are not.


    More to follow. When I have time.

    Please remember the US is probably more saturated with higher power handheld DPSS then anywhere else in the world.

    Watch this video as a LSO and cringe : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9FapL65tU

    Then go find the one with the guy playing with the KTP532 at 3o+ watts shooting beams around with his toddlers in the room.

    Then go find the article in "Make Magazine" about building a 100-300 mW laser harp with no mention of laser safety, with pictures of the beams going up to bounce mirrors then over a audience. No mention that public performance may/will need government permission. And no mention of protection for others on stage.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 01-08-2009 at 14:36.

  3. #33
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    I think RadioBoy and LaserBoy should go on a date.

  4. #34
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    STEVE-

    i have the UTMOST respect for you, but you kinda lost me in your last post.

    I am a "Professional" laserist. I own a "Laser Light Show Company." complete with variances, insurance, income, taxes being paid, product reports, FAA papers, clients, contracts, proposals and A LOT of shows under my belt.

    i WILL NEVER be an "LSDI." i will NEVER be a "Lightwave International." I will NEVER be a "Day Star Lasers." i have 3 Watt yag. and building a RGB system. does that make me less professioanl than a company with HUGE ion systems?

    am i less professional becasue i never had a generator break on me in the middle of a football field? i have brobably over 300 shows under my belt. if not more. i have had ZERO....repeat, ZERO complaints. ZERO accidents. ZERO "mishaps." And i have NEVER had a problem in the field that i couldnt handle on my own. and in the end, finishing the show i was conracted to do.

    i was able to do all of that WITHOUT accreditation. I honestly have a HUGE amount of respect and look up to some of you older guys in the business. i dont mean old as in age, i mean old as in equipment and the "good ole days." of ions. but i am getting VERY VERY frustrated with the fact that some of the "old timers" discredit and down play the use and ease of some of us newer guys with the SS technology.

    my shows are jsut as good if not better than some of the other shows i see some of the "old timers." producing. of course i cant do an olympic show for 90,000 people. but the smaller scale shows i do i am pretty damn proud of.

    can "Joe Smith" of "XYZ" company do it better becasue he is accredited? can "joe smith" do it better because he was able to afford to gon an ILDA cruise and recieve a technical award?

    i provide 1000% safe shows. in fact i am OVERLY safe when doing my shows. i may not know how to calculate the theta angle of a hypotenue laser beam being scanned at 9 degrees at a speed of 20kpps. bla bla bla...BUT....do i need to??? NO! im not crowd scanning. im not putting anyone in danger.

    i am ALL FOR safety. i am ALL FOR ILDA. i am ALL for a place for potential clients to see who is available to do what. but i am NOT for a program like this accreditation who is going to make the "little guys" like me have to fight EVEN HARDER for potential clients. all becasue i dont have a big "A" next to my name for being accreditted.

    i became part of the ILDA to learn, to become a professional member in the field that i am pursuing and to become a more responsible laserist.

    what, in essence, this accreditation is saying is that i am not as responsible as the big boys becasue i can not afford to do alot of the same that they do.

    comparing the laserist community to other professions like MCSE and such is not accurate. for every 100,000 computer engineers there is probably ONE laserist!!! for every 1,000,000 plumbers....there is probably ONE laserist. professions like those are MUCH MORE prevolent in our society than a laser light show. in the whole world there are MAYBE 100-200 MAX. laser companies.

    i enjoy my smaller scale laser light show company. i will never bill out a million dollar show. i will never own a 33 watt ion laser system. that doesnt make me less of an importance than a company that DOES do those things.

    i think the accreditation program should be EXTREMELY re-analyzed. i have upwards of a couple hundred emails now going back and forth from the laserists list. i have yet to see ONE email as a PROPONENT of the program. (as it is currently). i would hope that ILDA would listen to its members. becasue the way it seems to me is that there are A LOT of not-so-happy members. and remeber, im just the little guy. i really have no say.

    pat...youre a great guy! ILDA is a GREAT institution and has done GREAT things for the laser community. but i HONESTLY think that this program can be a detriment to the "little guy!"

    -Marc
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  5. #35
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    Personally I'm not a member of ILDA so maybe I don't technically have a right to pass comment here.

    But my view is I think there needs to be either a free or very low cost $20-30 internet based course and exam so that everyone, professional and hobbyist alike, has access.

    I think it needs to be comprehensive, ie. include all the knowledge necessary to enable safe audience scanning and assembly of shows for that purpose - those in Europe are most likely going to scan and for those in the US, such a course would probably help them get Federal approval.

    I also think for ILDA's sake, the course name needs to be worded carefully so if there is a bad event and it turns out the operator took the course, it doesn't reflect badly on ILDA (unlike the way it might if it was an ILDA member who was responsible). Whereas I do think the course needs to be all inclusive and not elitist or exclusive, but open to all, I think there still needs to be a distinction between ILDA members and non ILDA members, not in course qualifcation, access or content but through the course name given that its open to a much wider audience who may or may not be suitable for Full ILDA membership.

    I would suggest maybe the course should be called something like "Laser Safety and Audience Scanning Awareness Course" and then in small print ILDA accredited or approved. I don't think ILDA should call it something like "ILDA Laser Safety Course" because then if someone who'd taken it made a mistake, ILDA would immediately come under the spotlight.

  6. #36
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    Very well said, Marc.

    Accreditation is not something that should be bestowed on a person.

    Reputation is something that should be earned.

    Since laserists are such a small group, we have a tendency to get together and get to know each other. The ways we each represent each other to the general public (and to our other laser friends) is very important.

    If you're going to have a centralized authority giving out internationally recognized accreditation, it better be VERY HONEST AND ACCURATE.

    Which, since it will be done by a bunch of humans with egos, IT WILL NEVER BE!

    James.
    Last edited by James Lehman; 01-08-2009 at 16:36.

  7. #37
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    I dont care if ASME or SAE runs it or ILDA runs it, but we need a honest basic laser safety course in the US. Either that or we start documenting the import of DPSS.

    I dont see the ILDA list, but I do have a back door into how the regulatory types think.


    Marc, you have a variance, you care about safety, and I'll bet you go out with double gear too. The very fact that you have shows under your belt, puts you in the pro class already. You got paid to do those shows, your a pro. The fact that you have several hundred shows under your belt takes you out of the hobby level for sure. I'll bet you have a preshow checklist and I'll you have a system set up so you make sure you have the gear with you before you leave.

    And you yourself said CDRH is starting to grumble. CDRH is changing senior leadership, and a leaner, meaner Obama admin may say fish or cut bait , and cutting bait is loosing your job for failure to do anything. A easy target would be us,after one more moscow.
    So If we dont do something like this, how do you get the word out to prevent more moscows?

    I don't want to do this where passing the test is a secret handshake secret. God knows we have enough secret handshake type licenses around in other fields. I'm taking a major hit right now because I do PhD level work without a PhD. I can't get hired to do what I love because I can't publish in a peer moderated journal or apply for grants, And getting to that level is a 5 year long 60 hour per week secret handshake.

    I will make this so it is less difficult then a drivers test for a 16 year old, but it will still have meaning.

    Look, I use the no-code ham radio model. You pass a multiple guess test, you win. You get a little more time under your belt, you move up, Two levels, thats it. The next thing up after my two is the ILDA super pro thing. I want basic laser safety, professional level showop, and then the Ilda Professional.

    But I don't want to lower the standard for the second level. If you took your time to write out a variance I think your already thinking at the second level. I looked at the ILDA worksheet and I don't think I could pass it. I'd have a hard time documenting all those shows done way back when. I cant tell you what month I helped LMR do a all night rave in 1990 something.

    As far as I'm concerned, and I've said this at past ILDA meetings when I was still a member (I can't afford it right now, medical bills) I draw the line at IIIb and 5 mW for pointers, I dont think you need a more then 5 mW pointer unless your doing survey or astronomy work.

    My second tier is simple, have the basic hobby laser safety level.Obtain a variance or work for/with a varianced laserist and the do your own 5 professional shows. Pass a simple written test, plus one math involved 4 question test where you look up the exposure on the Standard pulse vs wavelength chart and calculate a spot on the wall exposure, a flat scan exposure, and static beam into the eye exposure. One simple divergence question in milliradians (if you cant do 1 mil expands the beam to 1 yard in 1000 feet, you shouldn't be pumping your own gas or doing your own checkbook.) I will give you the derived equations (plug and chug gradeschool math) on the test form. No sines/cosines/haversines. Your going have a study guide that is a good safety handbook to begin with. And ya know what, the CDRH and ANSI already wrote most of it. I'd like you to have a 2 to 4 hour course with a instructor, just to make the lawyers squirm. But thats going to be hard to do. You take the test with a volunteer designated examiner, ie any ILDA member near you gets a packet in the mail, hands it to you, you take the test, seal the packet back up and he/she signs it that you did the work, , and you mail it. Just like the ham radio stuff. And that system works just fine, ask the FCC and the ARRL.

    I'm using ILDA as a framework, because it already exists and the guys/gals on the safety comm are top notch.

    Screw it, I'm starting to wonder if its not worth the time to persue. But when the good ole boys at Homeland see a incident and say no more lasers, Aussie Chief Cop style........ There wont be time to implement a framework and we'll all lose.

    Steve

  8. #38
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    The sad thing about laser display is that there is no clear distinction between the "Academy" and the "Professionals". They are one and the same.

    Putting that kind of power into the hands of the very few money makers at the top is a bad idea.

    If there was a purely academic pursuit of the art and science of laser display then THAT would be the obvious place to keep and protect the laws, ideals and standards of the art form.

    Unfortunately there is no publicly funded, university supported, non-profit exploration of laser display for the good of the general public.

    We all fit into one of only two categories: professionals or amateurs.

    Because I don't make any money and I don't do any shows, I am an amateur. As far as I know, I always will be.

    James.

  9. #39
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    Steve.
    You make some good points..
    I still have issues with this "amateur" level status you seem keen to use.

    The world is not binary (you could be forgiven for thinking it is today) you are not necessarily one of two things.. that is ... "doing shows" as such you are deemed a pro or "not doing shows" as such you are deemed an amateur.
    If you look at our PL members we see a constant stream of members undertaking their first little shows or maybe their first paying show.

    I fully support a basic laser safety awareness cert' in some form. (Greg at LSDI has already developed it... so why re invent the wheel ??)
    My point is it gives EVERYONE whether pro or amateur an equal starting point. It also gives Pros something they can put their hired help through and at least be comfortable that the staff has some idea of whats happening with the setup.

    I can't see any point at all in a "Pro" version and an "amateur" version.
    After all same lasers, same displays, same safety issues... just one gets paid.
    It would be desirable in my opinion to offer a higher qualification for those seeking such a qual' to reflect the higher degrees required for large Pro shows and the complexities of same.

    Laser Institute of America (LIA) who run the current formal certification online courses and classes for lasers (not show lasers unfortunately) is this not what they offer their members ??.

    My time here on PL over the last year or so has shown that many of our members, Pro or Amateur are far from Amateur in their thinking.
    When I started to think of doing shows (which I have now done numerous of) and safety I flew to the USA and had training with Greg at LSDI in Florida.... and yes right now I am an "amateur" by virtue of the fact I do not do shows fulltime but I do feel confident thanks to the help I have had here on PL and from Greg, Bill, Adam and Patrick.

    We really need to lose this "I am a Pro" egotistical way of thinking, it is understandable given some peoples long history but seems to me to be clouding the ay things are going.

    Times are changing..... adapt or be assimilated. (Borg talk)

    Cheers

    Ray

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    This is a bad idea from every angle. If this new committee would spend its time enforcing the original code of ethics which I helped draft in 1986, all companies would be professional. Another elitist move by pompous individuals in positions of power creating a greater web of un necessary bureaucrary.

    EVERY individual in good standing in ILDA is a professional, if they are not in good standing there is a process to eliminate them. This new accreditation policy is nothing but a popularity contest and a my unit is bigger and shinier or whatever. ILDA has already accomplished what is necessary, standardization of control interface and control hierarchy. Another line item that could be included in the point system could be a secret handshake or a code word like the masons.

    ILDA has gotten to fancy for its own pants. Certified projector WTF, Certified Controller WTF what if it dosnt have a big red P on it you cant get more points? What a load. This new program smells of exclusionist not inclusionist. THE ELDERS STILL have alot to learn, it will be an unknown little mininion which could be the bright star to introduce some revolunary new product or technique that you never saw comming. History repeats itself.

    Safety-guidelines are in place by the federal government. For ILDA to certify an individual and if an incident were to occur, you will all be looking for a new fraternity. Training courses are available http://www.laser-professionals.com/. If you want real quality you could ammend the membership requirements so that each individual and company be required to be a CLSO http://www.lasersafety.org/

    All I can think of when i read the plans for this new accreditition policy is a 70 year old grey hared woman with a big ass wearing a visor riding around the neighborhoods on her pink three wheeled tricycle with a basket and one of those big orange flags measuring everyones grass and threatening that you will not be allowed to the next bridge game.

    ALL INDIVIDUAL ILDA MEMBERS SHOULD OPPOSE THIS NEW "POLICY" unless the committee can show documented potential clients who have requested a list of only the best of ILDA has to offer. It dosnt happen, clients want quality, safety and CHEAP. Not a mantle full of plastic awards.

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