ILDA Accreditation

[The_Doctor]

"Honorable Mention"

THAT phrase set the old alarm ringing. Maybe I'm stupid in not following this since the start, my earlier post here was purely a response to the one before it, but that "Honorable Mention" phrase confirms what I thought, that the ILDA is likely to go the way the film industry has gone. Fragmentation. And it doesn't matter. While one group gets cosy and clubbable another comes out of nowhere defying it and doing something new and interesting. Cells divide. That's how things grow.

[Pitts]

The guys at laserfreak, where under the German rules they need to have a day long safety certification course, have made it possible to get that course for about 120 euros, and have a mini LEM at the same time. Of course their country is the size of 5 of our states, making it easier. No secret handshake, and no difference between pro and hobbyist. It brought the costs down by acting as a group. You come out certified if you pass the test.

Steve... my point exactly...

Look at Paramedics as an example. If you call an ambulance you want a Paramedic... you don't need to know if he/she is a full-time "pro" medic or a volunteer "amateur" medic. here in NZ its the same qualification irrespective if your full-time or a weekend warrior.

I disagree with you when you say you are losing the battle... see Doc's post above... from debate grow new ideas.

Guys like you shouldn't give up simply because your original ideas are challenged in some way.

Appears to me we now have three matters (maybe more) going here now..

1) Laser Safety and operator certification. (in some form)
2) The ILDA proposal of some elite accreditation for recognition.
3) Control of "dangerous" devices.. lasers. Like importation etc

I also have some concerns that ILDA needs to be aware it is INTERNATIONAL in its scope not just American. It ignores this fact at its peril.

I say let no one "give up" lets push on and find solutions to do that we need all the experienced members here.

Re the LIA... yep, I am a member there as well. My point I was trying to make re LIA certification was the "model" not the detail. You are probably right they have bigger fish to fry than show lasers.
Besides that anything we do needs to cover more than just laser knowledge its the multiple environments we operate in as well.

Why is it with most governments around the world that they tell you something is dangerous, must meet some standards and THEN tell you they will SELL you the information on how to stay safe.??? (hey that's a good business to be in)

Cheers
Ray

[dsli_jon]

Hey Kats -

Wow! I got referenced 3x in this post - Cool! Marc, you're right - DSLI / DSLS has no ILDA Awards - never entered, so dunno ... I'm contemplating an entry right now, mostly, cause it's just a really cool laser shot / concept, and I'd love to see it get 'out there', but we'll see - when it comes right down-to-it, peer-group awards mean nothing, if a Co's biz / creative 'modus operandi' is HACK.
ie: I know of at least one outstanding example, who HAS WON an ILDA award, and the guy is STILL a throat-cutting, rule-skeefing. duct-tape-and-hairball-king / embarrassment to the industry.. go figure...

Anyhoo, GREAT, thought-provoking posts by Steve R, Pat B, Adam, Marc, and others - since I did not hear-back from Patrick in-reply to my 'proposed alternative to accreditation' on the ILDA-list / or email, what do you guys think of the following:

First, though I TOTALLY agree with Laserman, that ILDA should get more 'back-to-basics' - the specific 'IAPLC' program, as-proposed, IMO, definitely takes things down a real-world-irrelevant / potentially-negative 'Size Matters-thinking path' ... but, OK - if ILDA wants to propose something to further the 'goal':

"The goal of the committee was to allow outsiders to easily identify "professionals" who have a minimum experience base, from those who are less experienced or knowledgeable."

(...though I thought that's what we already WERE doing / getting with ILDA-Membership / Signing a publicly-viewable Affirmation on
doing safe Laser Shows... )

I submit that this 'accredited / non-accredited' status-idea is flawed - Why? 'Cause 'outsiders' / potential Clients canNOT make the all-important DIFFERENTIATION between someone who is not 'accredited', and a Co. who IS, in terms of truly being 'professional'. Like
I posted, Jim Martin, from Peachtree Lasers, postured the excellent point (paraphrased) '...so, lemme see, I've been successfully doing laser shows for 25 years - but never won an ILDA award (never entered...) and on that basis, I can't be listed with the 'accredited'???' Clearly, Awards do NOT belong in a list of 'minimum experience requirements for 'approval'... Sends a very-wrong / potentially-damaging message...

Really, I think it is not so important as-to WHAT the list of 'requirements' are / aren't - I think the 'flaw' is with BEING 'accredited vs not-being', to be presented-as 'professional' (of COURSE you're professional - that's why you're in BIZ, but potential-Clients read: 'worthy of being hired / not...)

'Nother example - quote, sent to me:

"I'm sure a smart company that doesn't apply for accreditation will have a good answer if a client should happen to ask why they're not accredited. For example, "We didn't agree with some of the requirements" or "We're already very well known in the field".

...and therein lies one of the exact problems with this idea, as-it-stands, here - if a client should happen to ask why they're not - how would we ever know that we were 'passed over' by a considering-Client, simply because someone else was 'accredited' and we are not?

So (and I do take to the point that there are many more important things to be concerned-about, like at least TRYING to cut-down on this type of shyte ) - IF there 'must-be' a program like this, so Co's can have a way to 'further themselves' via ILDA, then what if we simply let the 'potential Clients' decide who is 'more professional', based on 'experience'?

Assuming that ILDA Membership in-and-of-itself proves a good, 'minimum-level' of experience, suggesting professionalism to potential Clients, what if instead of redundant / controversial 'Accreditation', a simple posting of the 'points' you would-have accumulated as an 'Accredited member' - make a provision for ILDA Members to have a 'clickable, Expanded-Profile', where they have the opportunity to freely submit thier own 'accreditations' - like the little 'gold-stars on a chart', in kindergarden...

Here's my example of this 'Expanded Profile' concept (and yes, I KNOW, some of the info is 'not real'

XYZ Lasers
Address, Contact Info
Website, blah, blah, blah...
click here for 'Expanded Profile'...

XYZ Lasers - Expanded Profile:
In Business Since: 1993 (formerly dba XYI Lasers, since 1989)
Number of Employees: 3 Full-Time, 5 Part-Time
Number of Shows Produced, To-Date: 425
Number of Positive Letters of Recommentation Submitted: 23
Laser Show / Performance Awards Won: ILDA: 2; ADDY: 3
Other Awards / Accolades: Best Laser Invention Awards, Gold, 2005
Charity / Non-Profit Org Shows Produced: 5
Industry Association Memberships: 3
Laser Safety Courses Attended: 2
Laser Safety Licenses Held: 2: NYS Class B, since 1995; EU Certified Operator Class 5, since 2001
Laser Show Performance Variances Current (USA Only): Y
Laser Registrations Held (USA Only): NY, TX, IL, AZ, FL, MA, GA
Laser Regulatory Body Registrations (Outside US): EU Laser Operator, UK, CAA
ILDA Laser Safety Standards Affirmation Signed: Y
Other Relevant Info Sumbitted: We have attended and spoken at 'LaserComm' for 5 years,
Helped develop the SAE-G10 Standards, ANSI-Standards, and worked with the FAA on regulations,
and maintain an excellent reputation with all 4 Regions

Etc, etc, etc - I am sure other Members could look at this list and see rationale for some items NOT being there, and/or 'fix' / add the
ones that are not adequately 'International' - please correct / add as-appropriate!

Point is, an approach like this allows for Co's to 'boost' thier presence / experience / ranking vs others, (also, a stated goal of this program...) while at the same time, it is a bit more 'level' playing-field - the 'facts are the facts', and potential Clients can review these 'facts' and judge for THEMSELVES who they deem a more 'qualified, professional Co.' based on each Co's OWN 'accreditations'.

OK, fine, make us have-to provide 'proof' of all this, but for ILDA to put what WILL-be perceived-as a 'Seal of Approval' on a Co, based on meeting these requirements, as they stand, I do see creating the problem of 'mis-perception / negative perception' for those that are not 'accredited' -

We well know how powerful PERCEPTION can be - no matter how accurate it really is - it can even rule a Country!! (without wishing to open-up any 'cans of worms', all I need to say is "WMD", as an example, and you can understand my point!...) - let each stand or fall on thier OWN merits / achievements...

And if a Co chooses to 'just' be an ILDA Member, but NOT to pay-for / have an 'Expanded Profile', well, I think potential Clients would be far-less-likely to 'mis-interpret' that as a 'negative' vs if a Co IS or IS NOT 'Accredited' - yes, they might likely be more inclined to 'check-out' a Co IF they have an 'EP', but there is no 'implied APPROVAL / Endorsement' NOR implied DISAPPROVAL / NON-Endorsement - from ILDA in being 'Accredited' vs being-Non Acc'd... the facts are just the facts...

ie: They can CHOOSE to look at one Co. with only 5 Years-in - but 4 Awards - vs the Co. with 25 Years-in biz - but no awards - and decide for themselves, what is more important to them / who is more 'professional'....

I think the 'concept' has merit, but just the 'approach' is wrong... I, for one, would be happy to have something additional under our ILDA Membership to tell the World how hard DSLI has been working to do things 'right', and differentiate our Co. from the 'HACKS' that just set-up a good-looking website (where potential Clients have no idea that half - 3/4 of the 'show' images, there, are STOLEN from other Co's / 'OOB' Co's ) and they just go-around *doing shows* cutting-throats on pricing, and doing crap-work - or worse, unSAFE work, and hurting us all...

Sorry for the 'mondo-rant' but, Thoughts? Good? Bad? Ugly? Totally irrelevant? Let's discuss, so we can all send some good suggestions up to ILDA, cause if we don't, it seems like this will move forward, with or without us - it will get approved and put in-place, to the 'committees' own internal-likings, if we don't speak up...

solo mis dos centavos...
peace...
j

[heroic]

\\
D- Require a "certified" projector or control system - socialistic & exclusionary

This is a contradiction in terms.

[gottaluvlasers]

well-

i just talked to Pat Murphy. And let me say, the man is an honorable and dignified individual.

I still stand by alot of my points i made here. BUT- ALL of us, (rightfully so) kinda of jumped ahead in the thinking of how things are going to happen.

i suggest we ALL DOWNLOAD THE FORM HERE. This "proposal" IS NOT set in stone yet.

this is open to suggestions and it seems as if Pat and other ILDA execs are aware of the arguments being spoken by all of us.

The "little guys" have just as much potential in this program as the "Big guys."

we spoke for about an hour. so to be quite honest i dont feel like typing everything we went over. but, it was very productive. he addressed 99% of the concernes that were brought up in this post. and i would suggest (Sorry pat...lol...) people who still have concerns to contact him.

I closed the conversation with 80% of my concerns being addressed and logically answered. i still do have a few issues with the *CURRENT* proposal. but i have a feeling that after about a week more of suggestions, these concerns will be addressed also.

i would suspect seeing a web page very soon for us to see MANY of our questions addressed on this matter. it was an idea being tossed out there.

it pretty much seems to be broken down to an accreditation based on points. it could be 25 points to be accredited. HOWEVER- if you only do 1 show every 3 months, with one basic laser system you get one point per show. so, after 25 shows, you become accredited.

if you have an ILDA award and went to a laser safety course, you have 200 points and are accreddited. (after filling out the paperwork). and please understand, these numbers are just for hypothetical purposes. these ARE NOT REAL NUMBERS.

so, it leaves accreditation more attainable for EVERYONE. and it DOES seem to make MUCH more sense now. so, read through the form i posted above.

and if you have questions and feel like this program will affect you negatively, contact pat. (sorry again!!!! ) he will explain the benefits better than posts back and forth on here. or, ask me. i may be able to answer a few questions after our convo. we went over quite a bit!

Pat- thanks again!!

PL-it looks like it is going to turn out to be a GOOD thing! (AFTER some ratification!! lol...)

-Marc

[mixedgas]

darn form is crashing on my machine/ ACKKKKK Pfht

damn window$

Steve

[gottaluvlasers]

steve-

is it the download link? or the file itself? i can post a different link if need be.

-Marc

[mixedgas]

Its the file, parts of it aren't automating correctly after you fill in the data. the education points part of it crashed. My excel is about 4 years old, so maybe I'm missing a update.

Steve

[Laserman532]

This is a contradiction in terms.

only until a dictator of the laws set forth and ratified requires you to use his certified controller and excludes your design. You wont be able to earn as many points.

[ildadirect]

Anyhoo, GREAT, thought-provoking posts by Steve R, Pat B, Adam, Marc, and others - since I did not hear-back from Patrick in-reply to my 'proposed alternative to accreditation' on the ILDA-list / or email

Jon --

Sorry for not getting back to you. There have been many messages and I haven't had time to adequately address them all.

Your proposal is a very interesting one. I like many aspects of it. ILDA is working on a new way to access member information, and some aspects of what you have proposed will be in this new, database-driven, member lookup form. (I just have to get time to actually implement it!)

I will say that your proposal and ILDA's Accreditation plan address slightly different things.

The ILDA Accreditation proposal sets a specific "bar" or level to be reached. Some companies already reach this bar; others will probably need to take some actions, courses, etc. before they reach the bar. Once a company reaches the bar, then they can become ILDA Accredited. This accreditation simply states that a company has met a minimum set of requirements.

It is kind of like getting a college degree or MSCE. The diploma or paper at the end doesn't tell the grade point average or the courses taken. It just says "this person has satisfied the requirements of X University" or "this person passed the MSCE test".

Your proposal goes beyond this. Each company lists its specific resources, number of shows, etc. It is like a person listing the courses they took, and their grades in each class.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. The Accreditation program is simple; a company passes or it doesn't pass. If it passes, it is presumed to have baseline experience and "professionalism". (Leaving "professionalism" as a fuzzy concept for now ) A small, single-person company like Connecticut Lasers or Laser Spectacles (run by ILDA President Tim Walsh) can have the same accreditation as the largest lasershow companies in the world.

Under your proposal, a smaller company will always be at a disadvantage over a larger company. The smaller company might be just as competent (at least, for certain types of shows), but the larger company looks better in terms of employees, equipment, number of shows performed, number of awards won, etc. Plus, it is much harder for potential customers to wade through all the specs to find companies that can do the job for them. If I was looking for a laser company, I'd just sort by employees, or number of lasers, and then pick the top five results to get quotes from!

Additionally, ILDA Accreditation serves as a carrot to help improve the laser industry. Assuming that ILDA sets reasonable requirements, such as having completed an LSO course, it is a Good Thing for the industry to encourage safety knowledge, industry and/or community participation, etc.

I don't want to say that the two systems are "two sides of the same coin". I think they are more like two different coins or even two different monetary systems. Each has benefits and potential pitfalls.

ILDA has limited resources. At this time, the Board and I are focusing on the Accreditation program. This includes changes and improvements from all the comments that came in. We would probably not drop Accreditation to go to a "feature listing" such as what you propose. However, it is possible that there will be aspects of the "feature listing" in the future (6-12 months) and that after the Accreditation work is over (whether it passes or not) that the Board and I can look more closely at your proposal.

Don't get discouraged. It took about 4-5 years for the Professional Status Committee efforts to go from a proposal to the draft released last week. (That's too slow, but an indication that eventually things get done. Remember that ILDA is a volunteer-run organization with one half-time employee.)

Please feel free to call me at 407-797-7654 anytime to talk about your proposal and any other concerns. Marc and I had a good talk where we both learned a lot. I am really glad you have put such thought and effort into your proposal and I want to work to help bring it to the Members in some form, when ILDA can focus in that direction.

Thanks very much,

-- Patrick