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Thread: ILD SÔS - Upcoming new ILDA format oriented software.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Ahh. I was under the impression that you had written your own non-photorealistic renderer for MAX, with shading and such. This post really gives that impression:
    http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ead.php?t=5563&

    What you are doing is pretty cool and I wonder how many other people have really thought of this technique. We did this very same trick back in 2001, shortly after developing our plug-in.

    Incase there are people who don't know the technique, you can read about how to do it here:
    http://www.pangolin.com/_Files/Laser...pt01-LCMAX.pdf

    Basically you render things "twice". You render first to generate the laser lines themselves, then you render normal 3D graphics as a series of bitmaps or AVI, then "impress" the color from the 3D graphics onto the laser lines.

    It's not a bad way to go, and we were impressed with the initial results we got (especially since it was conceptually easy), but later we were dissatisfied with the quality and consistency so we built the shading aspects right into the plug-in itself.

    Anyway, good job. But let me ask you, what does this do that LaserBoy does not? I have heard people using LaserBoy to import DXF and of course ILDA, and I have heard that there is some kind of "optimization" in LaserBoy, but beyond that, I don't know much about it. Does LaserBoy allow for the recolorization of laser frames based on a bitmap?

    As I think of it, it seems like there a few free software packages out there that also import DXF and ILDA, and have built in optimization, and such and can even impress bitmap color onto the laser graphics.

    As an aside, it's great to see all of the activity of PL members contributing to this artform! This community sure is thriving with talent!

    Bill
    I am continually amazed at how my work somewhat parallels yours in this area. Really knowing nothing of your software I got my first taste in 3D rendering through Dr Laser's tutorial on using Illustrate! with LaserBoy. After using that technique only a few times it became clear that there were some issues and some things weren't quite right with the results and things that needed to be treated differently to get the results right. Also the process was somewhat awkward. I came up with the double rendering technique shortly after that and developed some techniques to get the result 'right'.
    Only very recently I fully realized how you leveraged illustrate! code with the authors help to create your Max plugin. Now again there are parallels because now I see early on you dabbled in the dual render method and, again, like I have seen, the results work but aren't as ideal as what could be accomplished in a plugin that does everything. However like I said in my first post the goal here isn't to compete with your plugin or the various other expensive 3D laser render software out there, the goal is to achieve the best functionality for the best price (I.E. Good functionality with less developer hours).

    I won't deride your work by acting as though this is just as good, so be careful in suggesting that 'other software in the void' may be just as good as this, I won't be discouraged.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    I am continually amazed at how my work somewhat parallels yours in this area.
    I'm not... Patrick Murphy used to say all the time "there are only so many 'right ways' of doing something". So I am sure that people who push on a particular topic will often come to the same conclusion. You are doing this work long after we did, but the answers are still similar. This is not at all surprising to me.

    Also, just to give you the full historical background (because I always like to give credit where credit is due), it was Lightspeed Design Group who started all of this. It was they who used the Illustrate! plug-in to generate 3D line art, and then convert it to laser using a program that they called "Prestidigitize". (So, essentially you are following in their footsteps, not ours...)

    Their results were impressive, but (hehe) if you think the price of our software is expensive, you should have heard the price of theirs! Plus, theirs wasn't a 3D environment, such as is created by a real plug-in for 3D Studio MAX, or better yet, a dedicated 3D laser program.


    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    Only very recently I fully realized how you leveraged illustrate! code with the authors help to create your Max plugin.
    I am not sure you "fully realized" anything yet, because you haven't seen our product, and don't really know the full history. Yes, in mid-2000, we worked with David Gould to provide us with a core rendering technology. We give him credit for this on our web site and help files. He provided around 6000 lines of code. The LC-MAX plug-in is around 60,000 lines, so his code was originally around 1/10 of what LC-MAX was. Since then other things have happened -- more and different things have been developed, etc. You haven't seen our latest plug-ins, or the results in action.

    Another thing you probably haven't "fully realized" is that after we started working with David Gould, several developments from LC-Max were actually put back into Illustrate!, helping to improve the rendered output and essentially helping Illustrate! to be used by future laserists. The results that you and others get from Illustrate! today wouldn't be as good if not for our involvement and cooperative spirit...

    So I am not sure that you have "fully realized" everything just yet...


    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    Now again there are parallels because now I see early on you dabbled in the dual render method
    Yes -- as Patrick said -- "only so many right ways"... Also, applying colors from raster right over top of line art was very easy for us, as that was a native feature of LD2000 since 1995. For us, the double-render technique was very easy to accomplish with just a few mouse clicks.


    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    like I have seen, the results work but aren't as ideal as what could be accomplished in a plugin that does everything.
    Exactly! At the point in time we were doing the double-render technique, we didn't have access to the data we needed to make fully-rendered, fully-shaded laser graphics due to the state of the MAX plug-in architecture. Since that time MAX changed a few things and now we do, which is why our plug-in for MAX 3.1 doesn't support shading, but our plug-in for MAX 4.0 and later does.

    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    However like I said in my first post the goal here isn't to compete with your plugin or the various other expensive 3D laser render software out there, the goal is to achieve the best functionality for the best price (I.E. Good functionality with less developer hours).
    Sure. I never said your goal was to compete, but it's good that you reitterated it here just incase other people don't really understand that and expect the same results.

    By the way, you keep inferring to "expensive 3D packages" and such. Would you please tally up the costs you see people spending on getting 3D Studio MAX, the Illustrate! plug-in, your program, and whatever laser program they would need? It might be interesting for people to see the total cost you are talking about here.


    Quote Originally Posted by drlava View Post
    'other software in the void' may be just as good as this, I won't be discouraged.
    Well, first, it wasn't my point to "discourage" you, just to ask questions. My questions might be uncomfortable to answer, but they are only questions...

    I asked a question about what LaserBoy could do because -- with the exception of one past PL meeting -- I have never seen it and only gather what it can do from osmosis.

    Second, regarding "other software in the void", I wasn't referring to other software in the void if you mean future developments. Rather, it seems to me that there is, at the very least, one other free software package that has been out for years, which will allow people to import DXF (as well as HP PLT, and probably AI as well) files, ILDA files, convert them to laser, optimize them, impress rasterized colors on them, and control hardware to project them. Based on what I have seen in this and the LaserFreak community, I only assume there are several pieces of free software that will do these things.

    One area where I find continuous curiosity is the concept that somehow free softare will create many many free laser shows and help to grow the industry. In fact I used to believe that myself prior to around the year 2002 or so, when Pangolin actually created free software to go along with very low cost (less than $500 end-user cost) laser projection hardware. The project went nowhere, despite big name investors such as Intel, Logitech, Symbol technologies and other big name silicon valley companies. Also, being in the industry for over 23 years I have heard the phrase "save the industry" many times, spoken by people who have only been involved with laser for a short time, as well as people who have been involved with the industry for longer than I have. So I see it a lot -- people say "hey, I will create free softare, this is better, this will really help". I have seen it for years. There is already a lot of free software in this business and, so far... nothing.

    In my opinion, people should not create free software with the notion that somehow it will magically expand or "save" the industry. Rather, there should be a realization that these projects are done for the fun of it, and pride of it, and for the admiration of others. There's nothing wrong with that! I hold up the work that mikkojay and Zoof has done as positive examples.

    Bill
    Last edited by Pangolin; 02-22-2009 at 05:50.

  3. #23
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    Angry Carmangary is a troll

    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Bill, are your comments really necessary?
    Bill's posts were on-topic and insightful. What have you brought to the discussion? That's right - nothing. Go home, you troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Nothing more to say.
    I don't believe that. How many times have you claimed that you were leaving? Yet you keep coming back here *just* to stir up trouble. (I haven't seen a productive, on-topic post from you yet this year.)

    You've got your own forum (Hyena! What an appropriate name!), so why not participate there instead of trolling here? If you truly have nothing more to say, then leave already.

    Adam

  4. #24
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    That isn't my forum. It's Alec's and James' forum. Speaking of forums. I think there is a Pangolin forum that could be used to share all of these details that Bill likes to share other than jumping in on other peoples threads to say "nice but we already did that a long time ago and it is better". He doesn't get it that we don't care if Pangolin did it already or if Pangolin can do it better. We're doing it because we don't want to pay thousands of dollars for something that we can collectively come up with in out free time. Especially, now with the economy pinching people Pangolin will become less attractive and the free alternatives will be more useful to people. Pangolin is becoming irrelevant to hobbyists who just want to fiddle with lasers and simple shows.

    DrLavas program may not be the best thing to ever come out but it is certainly revolutionary in that it will be affordable and accessible. That is something that Pangolin cannot say about their stuff.

  5. #25
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    Three thing I find really important addressed in the above post. I'm highlighting them just because I value these points, not to attack or otherwise. Just plain values from a free coder's perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    You are doing this work long after we did, but the answers are still similar. This is not at all surprising to me.
    Bill
    It is impossible to do this work without going over the steps that other made. Even if the pro's say "we did that years ago, so what is new?" it should not be a discouragement at all, its a confirmation of being on track. I know it's annoying and I don't know why Bill has the tendency to do that but he got me with it when in my 3D graphics engine thread. But what the heck, I'm doing this for my own fun and education regardless of what others say and did before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    ... because I always like to give credit where credit is due ...
    Bill
    Exactly, because if you don't you'll find nobody want to work with you. Crap, I've helped people along only to find they claim my ideas as their own, it stings and I'm keeping clear of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    In my opinion, people should not create free software with the notion that somehow it will magically expand or "save" the industry. Rather, there should be a realization that these projects are done for the fun of it, and pride of it, and for the admiration of others. There's nothing wrong with that! I hold up the work that mikkojay and Zoof has done as positive examples.
    Bill
    That is the idea, otherwise you'll end up frustrated, trying to push your software down other people's throats all the time, even being in competition with the rest of the world but getting nothing back. Edit: Actually I would take 'admiration of others' out of it because that is the one thing you can't control. If that is what you need for realizing free projects in valuable spare time, you are doing the wrong thing. But it is nice to get (and that is why I quoted the last fragment ) )
    Last edited by Zoof; 02-22-2009 at 07:44.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Bill, are your comments really necessary?
    Your comments are unnecessary. I just finished going over the last couple months worth of your posts and to be perfectly honest you have gone from "productive member with a complex personality" to "troll with sniper rifle".

    This is unacceptable and your prattle does not lend itself to the "theme" of PL or help with the delicate SNR that exists here.

    Next pot-shot at Pangolin or anyone and I will put my administrative boot so far up your accounts ass that your great-great-great-grandchildren will still be able to taste the Kiwi shoe polish.

    Stop, now. This is not a request.

  7. #27
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    Fine by me. Ban my ass. See if I give a shit. And please delete all of my posts, too. I don't want anyone here using any info I may/may not have ever posted.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Fine by me. Ban my ass. See if I give a shit.
    If you insist.

  9. #29
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    Enough code for now, I'm going to go play with my Lumia projector!

    -Mike
    Last edited by mikkojay; 10-07-2011 at 06:30. Reason: evolution


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    It is impossible to do this work without going over the steps that other made.
    Yes, in many cases this is true.

    Moreover, a LOT of times in the past, I thought that I was the first to do something, only to learn later that others had done it before me. I consider my past thinking to be immature. Now that I am an old dude my first thought is - surely someone must have done this before. There must be good knowledge to be learned from such people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    Even if the pro's say "we did that years ago, so what is new?" it should not be a discouragement at all
    And isn't meant to be a discouragement!


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    its a confirmation of being on track.
    EXACTLY!! In fact, Patrick was a firm believer that if Pangolin was the only thing doing something, then it couldn't possibly garner critical mass. The more people who are doing what you are, the more that it is a kind of confirmation that you are doing the right thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    I know it's annoying and I don't know why Bill has the tendency to do that
    It might be "annoying" to those who let it be but, I always try to bring something greater to the conversation. That "greater" might be a historical background -- including the history that existed before we even did something, or that "greater" might be additional information of how to do something, or how to do it better.

    For example, if you read the posts of Dr. Lava, they tend to be like "hey, I developed this great new 3D plug-in that does shading" and then "hey, I have this great new softare that allows you to do shading", but he didn't tell anyone how it worked. What I brought to the fore was a wording description of how to do it, and also a picture that shows the steps. For those who know the steps, these things can be done with free software that has existed for years (not that this should be a discouragement to work on your own things and own ideas).


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    but he got me with it when in my 3D graphics engine thread.
    Hehe. Maybe it's my way of reaching out Zoof . People who have contacted me by email after "he got me in my thread" have often walked away from the private conversations enlightened and better equipped. Even Gary could (but probably wouldn't) say the same as I gave him the latest (unpublished) version of the ILDA File Spec, the complete table describing the most-used ILDA color table, and information on how to implement it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoof View Post
    That is the idea, otherwise you'll end up frustrated, trying to push your software down other people's throats all the time, even being in competition with the rest of the world but getting nothing back.
    Exactly. We are researching a moving-coil project right now, and working with two of the guys who produced coils in the BOSE 800 and 900-series speakers. I got interested in these guys and the history of BOSE, so while reading about Amar Bose, I learned that he never did what he did to "change the world" or make money. Rather he did what he wanted to for the sake of his own fascination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    ...and I will put my administrative boot so far up your accounts ass that your great-great-great-grandchildren will still be able to taste the Kiwi shoe polish.
    WOW, even I am able to taste that Kiwi. Amazing!! Don't mess with the Admin!

    Bill
    Last edited by Pangolin; 02-22-2009 at 09:04.

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