help a noob out, pleeaase??

[hibbity]

Hi everyone. im new here, and Ive got some questions about my first laser build. im shooting high, and want to build a decent rgb projector, but im starting with 1 color and going up to all 3.

Ive read everything that caught my eye on the first 10 pages of the forums, and am at least kinda educated...

my friends and i (we're pooling together, im building) decided on blue first, then green, and finally red since ill have the most money at the last stage. so i'll want a really good high power narrow beam red.

I dont really know what i need for lasers, but i do know that i want to put in a single pot as an output limiter(one per beam if i have to) so i can turn everything waaay down for close indoor shows and sweeping small private audiences. thats kind of a final stage deal tho. i want it to work well first.

so far, i have a few different pieces in mind.

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my first real question is about "Norms Laser Show" and the framestreamer express 1.1.
are there any advantages or disadvantages to those??

http://74.58.33.200:81/FSX11.htm

it seems to be the cheapest usb dac i can find, and i played with the software works fairly intuitively.

is the frame streamer compatible with other software??
can i upgrade in the futue and keep the same dac?

also, his diode driver looks good for the price, is it?

http://74.58.33.200:81/RGBLaserDiodeDriver.htm

I think it will do what i need, modulated full spectrum rgb control.

I know that its a printer cable from the dac to the scanners for ILDA, but how does blanking or modulation work? where does it connect? can that driver blank the channels independently?

dmx? do i NEED it, or where does that fit in? i can see 3channe dmx to control beam brightness, but othher than that i have no interest. I do have a dmx controller, a chauvet obey 70, but its for the other lights.
__________________________________________________ __________________

This scanner set i found on ebay looks good for 250USD.

http://cgi.ebay.com/laser-galvo-scanner-30Kpps-for-laser-show-scanner-light_W0QQitemZ120406669412QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item120406669412&_trksid=p3286 .c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1| 240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

im poor right now, so im looking for cheap good parts, even if they're not the best, they just have to work.
does this unit support ILDA for sure?
I think it will fit my needs, but im not sure. advise me please.

(note) when scanners list a maximum scan angle, is it like this
|------------------------------------50*--------------------------------------|
or degrees from center.
|-------------50*--------------|(center)|---------------50*----------------|
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On to the lasers.
I know the least about lasers.
I know I'll need a blue laser to start with, and i know it has to me variable, perferably all the way from 5mw to its rated maximum

What wavelength gives the "best" blues, and will "easily" combine to white when i have all the colors?
Are some wavelengths cheaper than others?
are diodes from blu ray disc readers or writers worthwhile? or should i go for lab style lasers?

Ive looked at these

blue 150mw 405nm
http://cgi.ebay.com/150mW-405nm-Blu-ray-Blue-Violet-Laser-Diode-Module-Kit_W0QQitemZ280333316797QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item280333316797&_trksid=p3286.c 0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|24 0%3A1307|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

will it be able to be modulated 10-20mw when needed?

If cost is prohibitive, i can use a blu ray diode for now, or one like above, and get proper lasers in the future.

also, where can i buy this stuff in the usa? I sorta dont want to import it from australia?
__________________________________________________ ________

I know i need heat sinks, but im not sure whats best yet.

I know i need a power supply/supplies I might use a 24V supply and use resistors to get it to suit my needs. i dont know what voltages i'll need yet, so im waiting till i have lasers. i think i can handle that aspect.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
for mirrors, ive looked at these 2, and dont know what i need. this is like the only set i could find tho

http://lasershowparts.com/store/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=153


recap,
i need
STAGE 1, working 1 color(preferably blue, green ok)
dac
scanners w/supply
driver
psu
laser
heat sink

STAGE 2 addedafter a month or two.
mirrors
combining lenses
more lasers
more psus?

I think i can do a one color scanner with a crappy laser for 550 to 600$
250 for maybe decent 30kpps scanners, as opposed to nearly twice as much for equivalent scanpros
150ish for the dac, more for balanced outputs, but im pretending that i dont need that
80 for the driver
50$ laser, 10$ or home made heat sink
old computer psu scavenged for power supply for temporary laser

I cant go over 800, but i can build up the system over time.

Its getting long enough that i'm getting lost in my tabs and thoughts as i continue to look stuff up, so i'll bite it off here and edit later.

[Diachi]

Hello !

Me and my friend are actually doing the same thing, he is in charge of making the website, and I am building the lasers. He will also help with money

Anyway.

• That DAC seems okay, as long as it comes with some sort of software then your fine. You could go with an even cheaper option and make a USB sound card DAC and use laserboy software to control the lasers.
• You won't need that RGB controller, your lasershow software will control the lasers intensity through the DAC. You can also vary the power of your laser through the DAC ( As long as you have Analogue modulation )
• If you have a DAC you don't need DMX.

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• The scanner system may not do 30K , but it will still do the job for scanning. Might not be great for larger graphics. Price seems really good though. A nice set of DT40s would be perfect for you. You should contact DZ about them, they are great scanners.
• If I were you I would start with green first, then get red THEN get blue as blue is the most expensive. 445nm Blue will give you a nice colour mix, but is more expensive than 473nm blue, although some say 445nm is also a nicer colour. If you are the UK/Europe contact Stanwax(rob) he can hook you up with Green blue and red. If you are in the US contact GottalLuvLasers he can also hook you up. They are both distributors of Laser-Wave and can sell you GREAT analogue modulated lasers. ( Sorry if I forgot any distributors )
• You don't really want to use a BluRay diode for your blue portion, as it's not actually "blue" it's "violet" , it is also quite dim, and hard to see.
  
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• When it comes to power supplies and heatsinks, laser-wave lasers come with both, so you don't need to worry about that. If you were to build your own power supply/driver for lasers, you would need to use proper voltage regulation, not just some resistors. You would also need to find a way to include analogue blanking.
  
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• You should be able to build a nice RGY ( reg green yellow ) system with $800. The blue will be the most expensive part, so you should leave that to last. RGY is very good to start off with anyway.
  
  
  
  
  Hope this helps
  
  -Adam

[mixedgas]

__________________________________________________ ____________________________
my first real question is about "Norms Laser Show" and the framestreamer express 1.1.
are there any advantages or disadvantages to those??

http://74.58.33.200:81/FSX11.htm

NORM tries very hard to make a decent unit, and his code with scripting and editing is not that bad. You could also try the freeware LFI Player or Pangolins FB3.

However 8 bits can be a real limitation,. I suppose if I needed a decent, reliable club system and had no money and no electronics skills, I'd start with Norms. I heled Norm implement scripting, so I know his system can be useful, but 8 bits and TTL color can be limiting. I do keep a older parallel port Norms for backup. In the hands of a skilled operator who knows his music, Norm's can be used to make a decent single track show that is very good. But it takes practice.
Heck, I used to give the par port version away as gifts.


it seems to be the cheapest usb dac i can find, and i played with the software works fairly intuitively.

Norms software is very good, and the hardware works solidly , unlike some freeware/low cost hardware out there

is the frame streamer compatible with other software??
can i upgrade in the futue and keep the same dac?

Dont know. ASK Norm

also, his diode driver looks good for the price, is it?

http://74.58.33.200:81/RGBLaserDiodeDriver.htm


Take a look at the Lava Drive

I think it will do what i need, modulated full spectrum rgb control.

You build the reds, the blues and greens come with drivers and Analog modulation these days. So You only need a driver for the red diodes, unless your doing graphics and buy some 405 nm diodes, which are worthless for beams.

I know that its a printer cable from the dac to the scanners for ILDA, but how does blanking or modulation work? where does it connect? can that driver blank the channels independently?


The ILDA cabling scheme supports up to six colors and the safety shutter. You can buy either TTL (on-off) or ANALOG (variable intensity) lasers. TTL is somewhat obsolete.


dmx? do i NEED it, or where does that fit in? i can see 3channe dmx to control beam brightness, but othher than that i have no interest. I do have a dmx controller, a chauvet obey 70, but its for the other lights.


YOU NEED POINT BY POINT COLOR CONTROL< THIS IS 2009, NOT 1985! NO for the most part you do not need DMX, unless you want someone else to control your lasers, and in the US< that is not legal unless you are there as a control operator.



__________________________________________________ __________________

This scanner set i found on ebay looks good for 250USD.

http://cgi.ebay.com/laser-galvo-scanner-30Kpps-for-laser-show-scanner-light_W0QQitemZ120406669412QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item120406669412&_trksid=p3286 .c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1| 240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


Their test pattern is showing maybe 26K, the circle must be inside the square for a true speed measuremnt, but at least they are closed loop and very little overshoot. . I imagine that the reason they are 200$ is the bearings will not last long. At least that seller posted decent pics, but those are limited performance galvos.

im poor right now, so im looking for cheap good parts, even if they're not the best, they just have to work.
does this unit support ILDA for sure?
I think it will fit my needs, but im not sure. advise me please.


CHEAP is a bad thing, YOu buy the 200$ 12 K galvos and then upgrade software and find you need a 30K pair, and then you can't get any resale value for your old stuff. It is far better to buy a decent high power laser then one or two 35 to 60 mW toys and waste your money. Same goes for the GALVOS, most of us would rather see you start with better hardware then what your looking at, both for the good of the industry and happier clients, and so you don;t waste your money early on.

If your gonna charge clubs for shows, you need 250-500 mW minimum of green for a small club or rave and at least 250 mW of red. And that means pushing buttons all night and making it look good, or a club owner will just go buy his own. You cannot make money doing this unless you add "VALUE ADDED" services like taking the time to make it look good. If you cannot manually do effects to the beat by hitting a hotkey for each effect, you are wasting your time and cheapening the industry.

btw, if your in the states, you know you need some permits to do this in public, right?

Steve

[Diachi]

thanks for picking up on the things I missed out steve

[mixedgas]

thanks for picking up on the things I missed out steve

Yeah, your post didnt pop up till I staryed editing,

Steve.

[hibbity]

However 8 bits can be a real limitation,

how so? i dont know what that means yet. i understand TTL vs analog, but what this 8 bit business?

should i go with a soundcard dac and learn laserboy? would a soundcard dac be compatible with more software?

is scanner set i found on ebay looks good for 250USD.


Their test pattern is showing maybe 26K, the circle must be inside the square for a true speed measuremnt, but at least they are closed loop and very little overshoot. . I imagine that the reason they are 200$ is the bearings will not last long. At least that seller posted decent pics, but those are limited performance galvos.

would i be better off buying this?
http://lasershowparts.com/store/inde...d&productId=67
its close in price, but is it lower performance, or higher?
also, i get the option of dmx, even tho its a little useless.



If your gonna charge clubs for shows, you need 250-500 mW minimum of green for a small club or rave and at least 250 mW of red. And that means pushing buttons all night and making it look good, or a club owner will just go buy his own. You cannot make money doing this unless you add "VALUE ADDED" services like taking the time to make it look good. If you cannot manually do effects to the beat by hitting a hotkey for each effect, you are wasting your time and cheapening the industry.

Im doing mostly garage shows for bands, and might do a once monthy traveling rave club thing.
right now i have $4k in other lights, chauvet color palates, some intimidator 1.0 scanners,

I plan on setting up something like HE Laserscan's live mode, and do midi control for my other lights.

we're already the best in the area, but we want something to really WOW the audience on a large scale. alot of people in the area have never even heard of laser shows.

btw, if your in the states, you know you need some permits to do this in public, right?


Im going to be small and hopefully fly under the radar as far as permits and licensing untill I can afford to take the classes, buy permits, ect.

I dont feel that its realistic to expect full legal compliance for a private garage show with 35 people, or even a bi weekly rave with 100 people, MAX. by the time i do my first night with 500 people, i'll be liscenced and have permits, but thats at least a year.

also, I know, absolutely NO audience scanning. I can still do the best liquid sky in the state, and hopefully some time tunnels.

[RGbee]

decided on blue first, then green, and finally red since ill have the most money at the last stage.

Just a thought hibbity, but as blue is the most expensive how about starting off with red and green first. At least then you'll have combined RGY to play with whilst you save for a decent 473nm

[Jem]

Im going to be small and hopefully fly under the radar as far as permits and licensing untill I can afford to take the classes, buy permits, ect.

<puts head under desk and awaits fallout>

[buffo]

However 8 bits can be a real limitation,
how so? i dont know what that means yet. i understand TTL vs analog, but what this 8 bit business?

8-bit means the resolution of the controller. You've got digital data in your computer representing the vector art, and you need to convert it to analog data to send to the scanners. If you have an 8 bit controller, you only have 256 discrete voltage levels, which means (essentially) that you have 256 x 256 resolution when it comes to points... That's pretty coarse. 12 or 16 bit resolution will be much better.

should i go with a soundcard dac and learn laserboy? would a soundcard dac be compatible with more software?

If you want to experiment with that, it's your choice. A few people here have tried it, but most of us are running commercial controllers and software of one brand or another.

It's not going to be compatible with more software, but it's just about the cheapest way to get started - especially for a hobbyist. It's got it's own issues, but if you want to go that route there is another forum that can help you get started. Send a PM to Keeprex here on PL and he'll hook you up.

would i be better off buying this?
http://lasershowparts.com/store/inde...d&productId=67
its close in price, but is it lower performance, or higher?

The other galvos you linked to are unknowns. The Scan-Pro-20's have been reviewed here on PL and several people are running them. In my book, that makes them the better deal. Also, Dave and Adrian at LaserShowParts.com are members here on PL. They will help you out if you ever have a problem.

Note, however, that if you try to build a laser projector on the cheap, you're going to get cheap performance. That's OK if you're a hobbyist, but if you want to do this professionally one day, you'll save a lot of heartache, rework, and money buy spending a little more up front... With that in mind, I'd at least consider a set of Scan-pro 30's, if not the 40's.

A general note here - this hobby is *expensive*. I know most people don't want to hear that, but it's a simple fact. Lasers are not cheap. Galvos are not cheap. Controllers and software are not cheap. And you absolutely get what you pay for - there are no free lunches here. sure you can build some things yourself and save a little bit, but it's always going to be expensive. So you may want to stop and think a moment before you dive too deep into this, because it's going to be a money pit... Trust me.

also, i get the option of dmx, even tho its a little useless.

It's actually stand-alone controller. Granted, it only has a few patterns programmed, but it's a way to get started without having to buy a controller and software. (Assuming you already have a DMX panel to control it with, it could be quite useful - at least in the beginning.)

Im doing mostly garage shows for bands, and might do a once monthy traveling rave club thing.

Wait - you're already doing commercial shows? and now you want to add a laser projector? If so, then STOP RIGHT NOW and read the rest of this post in detail. You are treading on very thin ice here.

You need to consider a lot of additional factors before you put a home-built projector into a commercial laser show. For one, there are lots of safety features you will need to add. Also, there are federal regulations that you absolutely *must* be in compliance with. And there are some practical concerns to consider too. Reliability of your equipment is going to be paramount, which means you're going to want to spend more money on your scanners *and* your controller. This will also preclude you ever using a parallel port controller, as they can freeze, causing a static beam to be output. There is a lot of good advice available here on PL that will guide you towards building or buying the right gear, and we can also help you ensure that you are in compliance with the regulations.

I plan on setting up something like HE Laserscan's live mode, and do midi control for my other lights.

I wouldn't use that for a live performance in front of the public. Period. There are far superior solutions out there that will give you more creativity *and* more relilability as well. (But, as always, they cost more...)

we're already the best in the area, but we want something to really WOW the audience on a large scale. alot of people in the area have never even heard of laser shows. <snip>
Im going to be small and hopefully fly under the radar as far as permits and licensing untill I can afford to take the classes, buy permits, ect.

You are not going to be the best if you break the law. If you think you can "fly under the radar", then *you* are part of the problem with lasers in this country, and you will find no help here.

Safety is important. CDRH compliance is important. And idiots that disregard the rules and just fly by the seat of thier pants are largely responsible for the lousy regulatory environment we currently have here in the US with regard to laser shows. You will only be making things worse - for yourself and for the rest of the people here in the US. That's not smart.

Also, there are several professional laser companies represented here in this forum. You are tarnishing their image with your recklessness. If you don't know what you are doing, there are people here that will help you learn. But if you persist with this "I don't have to follow the law" attitude, you will be run off, and probably reported to local law enforcement as well. (We have several members from Wisconsin here on PL, including one that does commercial shows in the state.)

I dont feel that its realistic to expect full legal compliance for a private garage show with 35 people, or even a bi weekly rave with 100 people, MAX. by the time i do my first night with 500 people, i'll be liscenced and have permits, but thats at least a year.

How can you say that when you don't even know what "full legal compliance" entails? Furthermore, what difference does it make if you are reckless around 100 people or around 500? Reckless is reckless, period.

There are operators here that perform commercial shows for fewer people than you do, and they have full variances for their shows and gear from the CDRH. If they can do it, you can too. (It's not expensive.) You don't need to take a class - you can educate yourself.

The *only* escape you have is for your so-called "private" show in your garage. That specific case is exempt from CDRH authority, because there is no commerce involved. You can, of course, still be sued in civil court for any injury you cause.

But your twice-monthly rave for 100 people is most definitely a commercial event, and that puts you smack-dab in the middle of the CDRH's jurisdiction. You need a variance - pure and simple.

also, I know, absolutely NO audience scanning.

It's more than that. Do you have a shutter? Do you have a remote kill switch? Do you have a keyswitch on your projector? Are your beams always at least 10 ft off the floor? What safegards do you have in place to ensure this? Do you own a power meter? Are your lasers leaking IR?

I can still do the best liquid sky in the state, and hopefully some time tunnels.

Can you now? That's a pretty fair boast from someone just starting out. Especially when you haven't done any shows larger than 100 people, and probably don't know all the other laser show companies that are operating in Wisconsin. For the record, there are *hobbyists* here that have enough equipment in their garage to do an outdoor liquid sky effect (without fog) for 1000 people. So, do you still think you're the best in the state?

Don't get me wrong... You're enthusiastic, and that's OK. We like enthusiasm. But enthusiasm coupled with a flagrant disregard for the law will get you banned quicker than anything. Experience suggests that it will also lead to an accident or injury.

If you want help here, help is available. We can show you how to get a variance, suggest equipment that will help you improve your projector, and guide you through the process of creating a show. We can even show you how to build your own projector from scratch - including all the safety requirements that the CDRH will want to see before approving your variance.

But if you aren't going to follow the rules, you'll find that help will be quickly withdrawn. We don't need any more cavalier laser operators. There are far too many of them out there as it is, and they are slowly but surely *KILLING* this industry. The International Laser Display Association has had to intervene several times on behalf of laser show companies to prevent knee-jerk legislation from severely restricting their ability to do business. But ILDA is a small organization, and they only have limited influence. If we don't stop the spread of stupid behavior, in time no one will be allowed to perform laser shows in public.

Adam

[Jem]

Nice reply Adam... Let's hope it hits home

Cheers

Jem